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KJVO

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Logos1560

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D. A. Waite asserted that the NKJV has “more similarity to the English Revised Version (ERV) of 1881, the American Standard Version (ASV) of 1901, the New American Standard Version (NASV) of 1968, or the New International Version (NIV) of 1978, than to the KJV of 1611” (NKJV Compared to KJV, p. viii; Defects in the NKJV, p. 9).

Here is D. A. Waite making the same basic unbalanced and extreme accusation against the NKJV as Peter Ruckman makes.

D. A. Waite claimed that “the New King James Version is the most dangerous Bible version on the market today” (Defects in the NKJV, p. 8).

Waite contended that “the New King James Version Old Testament text is based on a different Hebrew text than the KJV” (p. 10). Waite's extreme accusation is not true.
 

Rippon

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From the Trinitarian Bible Society:
"...the New King James has thrown down ancient landmarks and made their translation of the Bible a potential haven for heretics by including heretical readings from the Alexandrian text as footnotes."

Now that is just complete garbage.
 

HankD

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From the Trinitarian Bible Society:
"...the New King James has thrown down ancient landmarks and made their translation of the Bible a potential haven for heretics by including heretical readings from the Alexandrian text as footnotes."

Now that is just complete garbage.

Yes, I've seen that charge before and their proof is that the NKJV will choose wording which is similar to a CT version yet no underlying serious Greek variances.:

KJV 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

NKJV 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

NAS 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.

Actually to some a more accurate rendering but a very subjective call not harming the meaning of the text.
 

rlvaughn

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How many of you have read books from reliable authors from both sides of the KJVO debate?

I would say that two books arguing against the KJV only debate would be
James White's the KJVO controversy
D.A. Carson's the King James Ony Debate
Authorized: The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible by Mark Ward
Yes, all three of these.
Then for the side of the KJVO I would say
Faith vs the Modern Bible Versions by David Cloud
For love of the Bible by David Cloud
the KJV defended by Edward Hills
Defending the King James Bible by D.A. Waite
Hills, of these three.
 

HankD

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It seems to me that "KJVO" has changed. Back in the day it included the doctrines of Peter Ruckman - 1) Double inspiration and 2) Advanced Revelation.

1) Double Inspiration : God inspired the KJV translation Committee similar to the prophets and apostles - rendering the 1611 AV as "Inspired of the Holy Spirit".
.
2) Advanced Revelation : I don't want to start a firestorm - suffice to say there are/were/will be "new" revelation(s) brought forth by the 1611 KJV.

Just wondering - do any KJVO believe one or both of these teachings?
 
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David Kent

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I hope you will accept that there is a difference between supporting the Traditional Greek Text and being KJV-only.

Yes there is. My wife uses the French Ostervald translation which is transalated from the Texte Reçu and differs at times from the KJV, very often in the tenses.
 

robycop3

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How many of you have read books from reliable authors from both sides of the KJVO debate?

I would say that two books arguing against the KJV only debate would be
James White's the KJVO controversy
D.A. Carson's the King James Ony Debate
Authorized: The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible by Mark Ward

Then for the side of the KJVO I would say
Faith vs the Modern Bible Versions by David Cloud
For love of the Bible by David Cloud
the KJV defended by Edward Hills
Defending the King James Bible by D.A. Waite

I do not consider G.A. Riplinger a good source for the KJVO position and Ruckman is definately iffy at the very least.

a worthy mention, though not necessarily a KJO position, is the Revision Revised by Dean Burgon, Dean Burgon utterly obliterated the Textual theories of Wescott and Hort in this book, and many of the textual choices made by Wescott and Hort that were destroyed by Dean Burgon have made their way into many of our modern translations.

I am just curious how many of us on both sides of this have read books from the other side?
 

robycop3

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How many of you have read books from reliable authors from both sides of the KJVO debate?

I would say that two books arguing against the KJV only debate would be
James White's the KJVO controversy
D.A. Carson's the King James Ony Debate
Authorized: The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible by Mark Ward

Then for the side of the KJVO I would say
Faith vs the Modern Bible Versions by David Cloud
For love of the Bible by David Cloud
the KJV defended by Edward Hills
Defending the King James Bible by D.A. Waite

I do not consider G.A. Riplinger a good source for the KJVO position and Ruckman is definately iffy at the very least.

a worthy mention, though not necessarily a KJO position, is the Revision Revised by Dean Burgon, Dean Burgon utterly obliterated the Textual theories of Wescott and Hort in this book, and many of the textual choices made by Wescott and Hort that were destroyed by Dean Burgon have made their way into many of our modern translations.

I am just curious how many of us on both sides of this have read books from the other side?


I haven't read too many anti-KJVO boox since I have my own knowlwdge of why it's false, but I've read many pro-KJVO worx, mostly for comedy since I fathomed the truth of why the KJVO myth is false.
 

robycop3

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Might I encourage you to read Cloud or Waite for a more balanced viewpoint?

As someone on the side of KJVO, I would not recommend Riplinger, Ruckman or Gipp as sound defenders of the KJVO position.

However, those three seemtabee the best sellers of pro-KJVO stuff.

But they all fail on the MOST-IMPORTANT FACT that makes all pro-KJVO arguments moot: the lack of SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for KJVO.
 

robycop3

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That's simply because most of your modern scholars and textual critics have accepted WH's textual theories without critical thinking. in Revision Revised Dean Burgon obliterated WH's theories and textual choices. THe following posts are from a thread I made in 2013:

"I've also been going through the NIV as i have been reading this book and I have been marking places where I find that the NIV has a reading with extremely little manuscript evidence, the NIV follows the R.V. of 1881 in many places, I have seen quotes of scholars that much of the "Accepted theories" of textual criticism lean heavily on Wescott and Hort, and my study and research on the NIV is confirming much of this independently.
Here is an example.

Luke 6:1 (KJV) And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

Luke 6:1 (NIV) One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels.
the next portion is from Revision Revised pg 73-74:

"It is in this way that a famous expression in S. Luke vi. 1 has disappeared from codices א b l. The reader may not be displeased to listen to an anecdote which has hitherto escaped the vigilance of the Critics:—

“I once asked my teacher, Gregory of Nazianzus,”—(the words are Jerome's in a letter to Nepotianus),—“to explain to me the meaning of S. Luke's expression σάββατον δευτερόπρωτον, literally the ‘second-first sabbath.’ ‘I will tell you all about it in church,’ he replied. ‘The congregation shall shout applause, and you shall have your choice,—either to stand silent and look like a fool, or else to pretend you understand what you do not.’ ” But “eleganter lusit,” says Jerome180. The point of the joke was this: Gregory, being a great rhetorician and orator, would have descanted so elegantly on the signification of the word δευτερόπρωτον that the congregation would have been borne away by his mellifluous periods, quite regardless of the sense. In other words, Gregory of Nazianzus [a.d. 360] is found to have no more understood the word than Jerome did [370].

Ambrose181 of Milan [370] attempts to explain the difficult [pg 074] expression, but with indifferent success. Epiphanius182 of Cyprus [370] does the same;—and so, Isidorus183 [400] called “Pelusiota” after the place of his residence in Lower Egypt.—Ps.-Cæsarius184 also volunteers remarks on the word [a.d. 400?].—It is further explained in the Paschal Chronicle,185—and by Chrysostom186 [370] at Antioch.—“Sabbatum secundo-primum” is found in the old Latin, and is retained by the Vulgate. Earlier evidence on the subject does not exist. We venture to assume that a word so attested must at least be entitled to its place in the Gospel. Such a body of first-rate positive IVth-century testimony, coming from every part of ancient Christendom, added to the significant fact that δευτερόπρωτον is found in every codex extant except א b l, and half a dozen cursives of suspicious character, ought surely to be regarded as decisive. That an unintelligible word should have got omitted from a few copies, requires no explanation. Every one who has attended to the matter is aware that the negative evidence of certain of the Versions also is of little weight on such occasions as the present. They are observed constantly to leave out what they either failed quite to understand, or else found untranslateable. On the other hand, it would be inexplicable indeed, that an unique expression like the present should have established itself universally, if it were actually spurious. This is precisely an occasion for calling to mind the precept proclivi scriptioni præstat ardua. Apart from external evidence, it is a thousand times more likely that such a peculiar word as this should be genuine, than the reverse. Tischendorf accordingly retains it, moved by this very consideration.187 It got excised, however, here and there from manuscripts at a very early date. And, incredible as it may appear, it is a fact, that in consequence of its absence from [pg 075] the mutilated codices above referred to, S. Luke's famous “second-first Sabbath” has been thrust out of his Gospel by our Revisionists.

But indeed, Mutilation has been practised throughout. By codex b (collated with the traditional Text), no less than 2877 words have been excised from the four Gospels alone: by codex א,—3455 words: by codex d,—3704 words.188"

The REAL problem is there wwas NOT any corn as we know it in those fields! It was grain, likely wheat or some other kind of grass. Corn was not brought to that part of the world til it was discovered in the "New World"!

In the 17th century, most grain was called "corn", but still, only true corn has "ears".
 

robycop3

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The last pro-KJVO book I read was Crowned With Glory by Dr. Thomas Holland.(2000)

While it repeats several old pro-KJVO arguments, it still fails, as do all other pro-KJVO works, to address the main KJVO problem of NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT and thus a lack of AUTHORITY to believe the KJVO myth.

This very lack of Scriptural support is why Protestants reject many RCC tenets such as mariolatry and the office of pope. Why more people don't apply this to KJVO & thus reject it is beyond me!
 

Squire Robertsson

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Roby, Dean Burgon was not KJVO. He's been drafted by the KJVOs at gunpoint. The good dean was rather a critic of Wescott and Hort.
 

Martin Marprelate

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D. A. Waite asserted that the NKJV has “more similarity to the English Revised Version (ERV) of 1881, the American Standard Version (ASV) of 1901, the New American Standard Version (NASV) of 1968, or the New International Version (NIV) of 1978, than to the KJV of 1611” (NKJV Compared to KJV, p. viii; Defects in the NKJV, p. 9).

Here is D. A. Waite making the same basic unbalanced and extreme accusation against the NKJV as Peter Ruckman makes.

D. A. Waite claimed that “the New King James Version is the most dangerous Bible version on the market today” (Defects in the NKJV, p. 8).

Waite contended that “the New King James Version Old Testament text is based on a different Hebrew text than the KJV” (p. 10). Waite's extreme accusation is not true.
From the Trinitarian Bible Society:
"...the New King James has thrown down ancient landmarks and made their translation of the Bible a potential haven for heretics by including heretical readings from the Alexandrian text as footnotes."

Now that is just complete garbage.
It's extremely disappointing that Waite and the TBS take this stance.
The KJV is never again going to be the leading version of the Bible (not in the UK, anyway). It's being abandoned by more churches all the time. Quite apart from its various errors, the language is just too difficult for most people. The danger is that if people read the hostile reviews of the NKJV, they will move to a version that uses the Critical Text. If the NKJV really isn't up to scratch, then it is up to some group to improve on it. IMHO, although there are a few improvements that could be made, the NKJV is a fine translation.

I know personally some of the people involved in the Trinitarian Bible Soc, and they are fine, godly Christians, but with a bee in their bonnets!. The TBS has recently produced a new version of the Spanish Reina Valera Bible, and whilst I know no Spanish, my friends that do say it is splendid. Why, Oh why will it not bring out its own new revision of the KJV? Sad to say, so long as Malcolm Watts and John Thackway are involved with it, that's not going to happen.

BTW, IMO the footnote readings in the NKJV are among its best features-- really helpful!
 

HankD

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As a former KJVO :
IMO The oldest fly in the 1611 KJVO ointment is that there were two versions, the Cambridge and the Oxford and in fact the Ruckmanites are divided on this issue.

Some support one and some the other.

It might be urban legend but when Ruckman was asked which which KJ Bible he agreed with he said "the one in my hand".

Another fly (at least to me) is that the Apocrypha was included in the first editions - Catholic grave clothes - being also a former Catholic this rattled me.

These two things (and a couple of others like - the English corrects the Greek and Hebrew) changed me from KJVO to KJV preferred (actually TR strongly preferred).

I did and still do believe the Alexandrian scribes did violence to the Greek text.
 

HankD

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It's extremely disappointing that Waite and the TBS take this stance.
The KJV is never again going to be the leading version of the Bible (not in the UK, anyway). It's being abandoned by more churches all the time. Quite apart from its various errors, the language is just too difficult for most people. The danger is that if people read the hostile reviews of the NKJV, they will move to a version that uses the Critical Text. If the NKJV really isn't up to scratch, then it is up to some group to improve on it. IMHO, although there are a few improvements that could be made, the NKJV is a fine translation.

I know personally some of the people involved in the Trinitarian Bible Soc, and they are fine, godly Christians, but with a bee in their bonnets!. The TBS has recently produced a new version of the Spanish Reina Valera Bible, and whilst I know no Spanish, my friends that do say it is splendid. Why, Oh why will it not bring out its own new revision of the KJV? Sad to say, so long as Malcolm Watts and John Thackway are involved with it, that's not going to happen.

BTW, IMO the footnote readings in the NKJV are among its best features-- really helpful!
As a Sunday School teacher of senior adults for many years I used NJKV, KJV, NIV in that order NKJV-KJV a toss up.
Fortunately I took Greek and Hebrew in my formal education and was able use it to enhance my presentations.
 

Yeshua1

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It's extremely disappointing that Waite and the TBS take this stance.
The KJV is never again going to be the leading version of the Bible (not in the UK, anyway). It's being abandoned by more churches all the time. Quite apart from its various errors, the language is just too difficult for most people. The danger is that if people read the hostile reviews of the NKJV, they will move to a version that uses the Critical Text. If the NKJV really isn't up to scratch, then it is up to some group to improve on it. IMHO, although there are a few improvements that could be made, the NKJV is a fine translation.

I know personally some of the people involved in the Trinitarian Bible Soc, and they are fine, godly Christians, but with a bee in their bonnets!. The TBS has recently produced a new version of the Spanish Reina Valera Bible, and whilst I know no Spanish, my friends that do say it is splendid. Why, Oh why will it not bring out its own new revision of the KJV? Sad to say, so long as Malcolm Watts and John Thackway are involved with it, that's not going to happen.

BTW, IMO the footnote readings in the NKJV are among its best features-- really helpful!
The good news is that the Nkjv is really good, but so is the Nasb, so you can have a reliable version regardless of Greek text source!
 
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