All true and it needs to sink into the ears of all. That's why advocates of concordance are not thinking clearly. Contextual meanings are more imporant than mere concordance of words.
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Kjvp
- Thread starter Robert Snow
- Start date
All true and it needs to sink into the ears of all. That's why advocates of concordance are not thinking clearly. Contextual meanings are more imporant than mere concordance of words.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
To Answer The OP....ONLY
I love, like,"prefer", read, study, use, and recommend ONLY the KJV. For the record, I have personally never read one verse in any other version of the scriptures (and I do have numerous other translations that I occasionally use for comparative purposes) that I found that was translated better or preferable over my KJV. I came to my convictions regarding the KJV matter later in my Christian life and see no need or hint of a good reason to change my mind now. My examination of the evidence (for BOTH positions) brought me to favor the KJV (For ENGLISH SPEAKERS) and has satisfied me. I am at great peace about the matter. I will read other books that quote from other versions occasionally but if I am unfamiliar with the scriptures that are being referenced then I will check it out in my Bible. I do tend to avoid reading many of the modern writers who use the other versions of the scriptures exclusively though because I don't feel comfortable with their level of discernment or judgement. Simply stated...and without malice or regret...I am unashamedly KJV ONLY. I thank and praise God for His Perfect Word and for seeing to it that I can have a copy of it in my hand in these last dark and evil days in which we live. My absolute confidence in it is unassailable. That's about all I care to say about the matter.
Bro.Greg:saint:
I love, like,"prefer", read, study, use, and recommend ONLY the KJV. For the record, I have personally never read one verse in any other version of the scriptures (and I do have numerous other translations that I occasionally use for comparative purposes) that I found that was translated better or preferable over my KJV. I came to my convictions regarding the KJV matter later in my Christian life and see no need or hint of a good reason to change my mind now. My examination of the evidence (for BOTH positions) brought me to favor the KJV (For ENGLISH SPEAKERS) and has satisfied me. I am at great peace about the matter. I will read other books that quote from other versions occasionally but if I am unfamiliar with the scriptures that are being referenced then I will check it out in my Bible. I do tend to avoid reading many of the modern writers who use the other versions of the scriptures exclusively though because I don't feel comfortable with their level of discernment or judgement. Simply stated...and without malice or regret...I am unashamedly KJV ONLY. I thank and praise God for His Perfect Word and for seeing to it that I can have a copy of it in my hand in these last dark and evil days in which we live. My absolute confidence in it is unassailable. That's about all I care to say about the matter.
Bro.Greg:saint:
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Whenever my second favourite Holiday "Thanksgiving" is used as a noun.
It's called a gerund.
As applied to English, it refers to the -ing form of a verb when it is used, as a verb, to form a noun phrase [emphasis mine] (for example, the verb learning in the sentence "Learning English is an easy process for some").http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerund
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Do you have some example verses where the five English words would not provide the contextual meaning? You seem long on assertions and short of substance.
Of course various forms of the English words are included! For example, Word with a Capital W could be used to refer to Christ. Then word and words could be used for singular and plural. You seem like you are trying to find fault with anything I say. That says a lot. Just saying. Get it?
LOL! One would need far more than merely five.
Here is a partial list from the NASBU:
Matt. 5:32 Reason
Matt. 5:37 Statement
Matt. 12:32 Word
Matt. 18:23 Accounts
Matt. 21:24 Thing
Matt. 28:15 Story
Mark 1:45 News
Mark 11:29 Question
Luke 4:32 Message
Luke 7:17 Report
Luke 16:2 Accounting
John 21:23 Saying
Acts 1:1 Account
Acts 14:12 Speaker
Acts 19:38 Complaint
Acts 20:2 Exhortation
Good golly Miss Molly
1) Word is one of the five words.
2) Account (which includes accounting)is one of the five words
3) Say (which includes saying and sayings) is one of the five words.
So that leaves us with Matthew 5:32 which is variously translated "for the reason, or in the case of, or for the matter of, and therefore "on account of" works perfectly in context. Thus a bogus example where it was claimed the context required a willy nilly translation.
Matthew 5:37 says let your "statement" be and HCSB translates it let your word be, and the NIV translates it, let what you say be. So this is an example where two of the five words would work contextually.
Next we have Matthew 21:24 which says I will will ask you one "question" or one "thing". This could be translated I will ask you one maxim.
Matthew 28:15 Here we have a "story" spread, and the NKJV renders it "this saying is commonly reported" but without any effort instead of this story we could say this account was spread.
Mark 1:45 we have spread the "news" around, and this could easily be spread the "account" around.
Mark 11:29 (similar to Matthew 21:24) translates "logos" as question when "maxim" works even better contextually.
Luke 4:32 has message, but several translations have word or words, i.e. His words possessed authority.
Luke 7:17 has "news" or "report," but this "account" works well.
Acts 14:12 has chief or main "speaker" but could be rendered as the one leading the "speech."
Acts 19:38 has complaint, case or charge against, and while a word, or account against would work, the idea of a reasoned brief or indictment would seem better. So lets consider adding "indictment" to the list.
Acts 20:2 several translations have entreating them "with many words."
Bottom line, one of the possible meanings of logos seems to be indictment, referring to a well reasoned charge against someone or something. Beyond that, no reason was found for many of the helter skelter translation efforts.
1) Word is one of the five words.
2) Account (which includes accounting)is one of the five words
3) Say (which includes saying and sayings) is one of the five words.
So that leaves us with Matthew 5:32 which is variously translated "for the reason, or in the case of, or for the matter of, and therefore "on account of" works perfectly in context. Thus a bogus example where it was claimed the context required a willy nilly translation.
Matthew 5:37 says let your "statement" be and HCSB translates it let your word be, and the NIV translates it, let what you say be. So this is an example where two of the five words would work contextually.
Next we have Matthew 21:24 which says I will will ask you one "question" or one "thing". This could be translated I will ask you one maxim.
Matthew 28:15 Here we have a "story" spread, and the NKJV renders it "this saying is commonly reported" but without any effort instead of this story we could say this account was spread.
Mark 1:45 we have spread the "news" around, and this could easily be spread the "account" around.
Mark 11:29 (similar to Matthew 21:24) translates "logos" as question when "maxim" works even better contextually.
Luke 4:32 has message, but several translations have word or words, i.e. His words possessed authority.
Luke 7:17 has "news" or "report," but this "account" works well.
Acts 14:12 has chief or main "speaker" but could be rendered as the one leading the "speech."
Acts 19:38 has complaint, case or charge against, and while a word, or account against would work, the idea of a reasoned brief or indictment would seem better. So lets consider adding "indictment" to the list.
Acts 20:2 several translations have entreating them "with many words."
Bottom line, one of the possible meanings of logos seems to be indictment, referring to a well reasoned charge against someone or something. Beyond that, no reason was found for many of the helter skelter translation efforts.
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So even though you value the NASSBU so highly you are willing to call its translation efforts "will-nilly" and "helter skelter"? I think you speak from both sides of your mouth.
In Dave Brunn's book : One Bible,Many Versions he has a table on page 72 called More Renderings of logos (from the ESV and NASB)
Answer
Appearance
Book
Complaint
Conversation
Credit
Ground
Justify
Message
News
Remark
Report
Retort
Sentence
Speaking
Statement
Story
Talking
Teaching
Testimony
That
What (was spoken)
Why
Word of Mouth
He didn't supply any references for the about renderings. But I must say,your 6 or 7 itemed- list would really have to be greatly enlarged beyond merely adding the word indictment.
I don't know why you have a fascination for the word maxim. What translation uses that word? By the way,one doesn't ask a maxim.
So even though you value the NASSBU so highly you are willing to call its translation efforts "wilyl-nilly" and "helter skelter"? I think you speak from both sides of your mouth.
In Dave Brunn's book : One Bible,Many Versions he has a table on page 72 called More Renderings of logos (from the ESV and NASB)
Correction, that's page 75.
Good Golly Miss Molly
1) I take it that it is axiomatic that one cannot ask for a maxim to describe where power or authority comes from? LOL Maxim = A short, pithy statement expressing a general truth or rule of conduct.
2) Your list includes words I addressed.
3) You have provided no examples to support your contention, and I have addressed every bogus example you have provided, demonstrating one of the words would render the passage in a contextually accurate manner.
4) Yes, all the Modern translations translate the Greek words and phrases willy - nilly. The very same word or phrase is translated differently even when the contextual meaning seems to be the same.
And we have not addressed the other side of the coin, how many other Greek words are translated into these willy nilly translations.
Logos, Strong's G3056 is translated as "answer" (according to your listing. But G611, 250 times translated answer. And if you look at Mark 7:29, the KJV renders logos as saying, with other versions using "reply" "statement" in addition to the NASB rendering it answer with a footnote of literal "word."
Bottom line, there is absolute no reason for all this lazy ignorant translation practice by folks who think of themselves as scholars.
So even though you value the NASSBU so highly you are willing to call its translation efforts "will-nilly" and "helter skelter"? I think you speak from both sides of your mouth.
In Dave Brunn's book : One Bible,Many Versions he has a table on page 72 called More Renderings of logos (from the ESV and NASB)
Answer
Appearance
Book
Complaint
Conversation
Credit
Ground
Justify
Message
News
Remark
Report
Retort
Sentence
Speaking
Statement
Story
Talking
Teaching
Testimony
That
What (was spoken)
Why
Word of Mouth
He didn't supply any references for the about renderings. But I must say,your 6 or 7 item - list would really have to be greatly enlarged beyond merely adding the word indictment.
I don't know why you have a fascination for the word maxim. What translation uses that word? By the way,one doesn't ask a maxim.
1) I take it that it is axiomatic that one cannot ask for a maxim to describe where power or authority comes from? LOL Maxim = A short, pithy statement expressing a general truth or rule of conduct.
2) Your list includes words I addressed.
3) You have provided no examples to support your contention, and I have addressed every bogus example you have provided, demonstrating one of the words would render the passage in a contextually accurate manner.
4) Yes, all the Modern translations translate the Greek words and phrases willy - nilly. The very same word or phrase is translated differently even when the contextual meaning seems to be the same.
And we have not addressed the other side of the coin, how many other Greek words are translated into these willy nilly translations.
Logos, Strong's G3056 is translated as "answer" (according to your listing. But G611, 250 times translated answer. And if you look at Mark 7:29, the KJV renders logos as saying, with other versions using "reply" "statement" in addition to the NASB rendering it answer with a footnote of literal "word."
Bottom line, there is absolute no reason for all this lazy ignorant translation practice by folks who think of themselves as scholars.
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So? There were many more aside from yours.
Bogus? How so?
And the Van version would not dare do syuch a thing as that willy-nilly stuff,huh?
Bible translators of the modern versions are scholars. You are not.
Do you regard the translators of your favorite version --the NASBU,as lazy and ignorant?
Your arrogance seeps out of your pores.
Gregory Perry Sr:
OK, except for your "recommend" part.
Not trying to be smart-aleck, but you apparently haven't read them very deeply; you apparently began reading them with your mind closed due to the KJVO myth, and had already dismissed them before actually reading them.
Apparently you came under the influence of Ruckman, Riplinger, Moorman, melton, or some other purveyor of KJVO horse feathers.
Apparently, you haven't examined the evidence AGAINST KJVO too thoroughly, especially the cultic, dishonest origin of the current myth.
That's because you apparently have decided you don't wanna know the WHOLE TRUTH.
I myself do the same...in MODERN English.
That's because you're too in-love with the KJVO myth.
There IS a cure for that disease. Just ask your Lord Jesus.
Please tell us what the name is of your perfect copy of God's word. it aint the KJV because it's NOT perfect. We have pointed out some of its booboos right here.
Again, that's cuz apparently your mind is closed to the TRUTH.
You have NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT to justify KJVO.
Its dubious origin has been posted on this forum.
God did NOT retire in 1611.
You are without excuse to justify believing the KJVO myth. While it won't interfere with your salvation, it WILL limit your effective witness to others. That was Satan's intent in creating KJVO-to cast doubt upon many perfectly-valid editions of God's word. KJVO is just another of the devil's tools, with which he deceives even some of the elect.
OK, except for your "recommend" part.
Not trying to be smart-aleck, but you apparently haven't read them very deeply; you apparently began reading them with your mind closed due to the KJVO myth, and had already dismissed them before actually reading them.
Apparently you came under the influence of Ruckman, Riplinger, Moorman, melton, or some other purveyor of KJVO horse feathers.
Apparently, you haven't examined the evidence AGAINST KJVO too thoroughly, especially the cultic, dishonest origin of the current myth.
That's because you apparently have decided you don't wanna know the WHOLE TRUTH.
I myself do the same...in MODERN English.
That's because you're too in-love with the KJVO myth.
There IS a cure for that disease. Just ask your Lord Jesus.
Please tell us what the name is of your perfect copy of God's word. it aint the KJV because it's NOT perfect. We have pointed out some of its booboos right here.
Again, that's cuz apparently your mind is closed to the TRUTH.
You have NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT to justify KJVO.
Its dubious origin has been posted on this forum.
God did NOT retire in 1611.
You are without excuse to justify believing the KJVO myth. While it won't interfere with your salvation, it WILL limit your effective witness to others. That was Satan's intent in creating KJVO-to cast doubt upon many perfectly-valid editions of God's word. KJVO is just another of the devil's tools, with which he deceives even some of the elect.
makahiya117
New Member
KJV 1 Corinthians 15:3-4
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day
according to the scriptures.
While the entire line of scripture are records,
the outstanding record of scripture
and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form
of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible first edition.
KJV Holy Bibles are the most published, read and loved bibles of all time.
KJV Holy Bibles are the most published, read and loved books of all time.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day
according to the scriptures.
While the entire line of scripture are records,
the outstanding record of scripture
and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form
of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible first edition.
KJV Holy Bibles are the most published, read and loved bibles of all time.
KJV Holy Bibles are the most published, read and loved books of all time.
Are you attempting to make the proven, known errors in the 1611 edition of the KJV the final authority?
I've found so many I can't count. Here's some of the "greatest hits". After reading them, I would be interested to see if you still think KJV is the best translation, and clearest to understand. Better yet, try reading them aloud.
James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. [KJV]
James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. [NIV]
---------
Luke 14:10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. [KJV]
Luke 14:10 But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests. [NIV]
----------
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [KJV]
Heb 7:18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless [NIV]
------------
2 Cor 6:11 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged. [KJV]
2 Cor. 6:11 We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you.
12 We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us.
13 As a fair exchange—I speak as to my children—open wide your hearts also. [NIV]
------------
1 Cor 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, [KJV]
1 Cor 5:3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. [NIV]
-------------
etc. etc.
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Think bible versions like wives, question really is not who is the best one, but who is the best one for me?
Don't think so.
The KJV doesn't get jealous if I read the NIV.
My Bible doesn't ask me, "does this make me look fat"
If I change from the KJV to the NIV I don't have to pay alimony.
etc. etc.
convicted1
Guest
Hehehehehehehehehe.......
convicted1
Guest
There's not one version of the bible that is translated w/o any flaws imo. Men have translated them, and the manuscripts they used, weren't they copies? The true version would be the scrolls/parchments used as these writers of old(talking about the Prophets, Disciples, Judges, etc) wrote on as they were under the divine inspiration of the Spirit.
Hi Rippon, please provide a list of willy-nilly translations of logos that I have not addressed.
I have shown how words from my short list are used to translate every willy-nilly example you provided. You have provided no examples with a scriptural reference of a translation of logos that does not fit within the short list. None, zero, nada.
I cannot translate the Bible, but I can compare various translations where the same Greek word is translated into several different English words, such as for Mark 7:29, we find "question" "reply" "statement" and "saying."
Yes, I regard all modern translations as deeply flawed because of the willy nilly translation of Greek words and phrases, and because of the lack of strictly consistent translation of genitives. We may not know enough about how the grammar dictated the meaning to avoid all ambiguity, but to allow needless ambiguity is lazy and flawed.
There were some who said the lad who said the king has no clothes was arrogant, but he was simply speaking truth as he saw it.
Bottom line, there is no good reason for translating logos with more than 30 different English words, when 6 or 7 would do the job. This would reduce overlap where the same English word is used to translate differing Greek words, obliterating the distinction of God's intended message.
I have shown how words from my short list are used to translate every willy-nilly example you provided. You have provided no examples with a scriptural reference of a translation of logos that does not fit within the short list. None, zero, nada.
I cannot translate the Bible, but I can compare various translations where the same Greek word is translated into several different English words, such as for Mark 7:29, we find "question" "reply" "statement" and "saying."
Yes, I regard all modern translations as deeply flawed because of the willy nilly translation of Greek words and phrases, and because of the lack of strictly consistent translation of genitives. We may not know enough about how the grammar dictated the meaning to avoid all ambiguity, but to allow needless ambiguity is lazy and flawed.
There were some who said the lad who said the king has no clothes was arrogant, but he was simply speaking truth as he saw it.
Bottom line, there is no good reason for translating logos with more than 30 different English words, when 6 or 7 would do the job. This would reduce overlap where the same English word is used to translate differing Greek words, obliterating the distinction of God's intended message.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Wow...I'm Surprized!!!
Roby...I'm absolutely shocked that it took you 5 WHOLE DAYS to go into the attack mode on me. You must be slipping or getting old for it to go that far without comment. Yawwwwwwn. (but I didn't lose any sleep at all brother) Actually...there is NO SCRIPTURAL support for your position either.....and the manuscript evidence (I've read much of it for both sides but I am no expert by any means and I know I can't change your mind or anybody elses one way OR the other...and I'm honest enough to know and admit THAT)
Either way...next time I decide to post in here (and I'm getting to the point where I think it is a waste of God's good time:BangHead PLEASE don't ignore me....I hate it when you ignore me:smilewinkgrin:!
By the way...things that are different are not the same...Ya just can't have it both ways. A perfect, just, righteous and holy God is not gonna leave His holy Word to the whims, fancy's, and corruptions or imperfections of lost (or saved) men and women. He has protected it's inspiration, preservation, transmission, and translation into the various languages down over the years and we have it as He intended for us to have it in perfect form today whether you or others believe it or know it or not. It is a supernatural work that we can neither explain or dissect...only believe or reject. I just choose to believe it. By the same token, it is also certain that Satan has sought to counterfeit and corrupt that same Word from the very beginning because of his hatred for God and everything that God says or does. Frankly Roby....and I take absolutely no pleasure in saying this...I think you are just as deceived as you think me to be. The only thing I can think of to do is pray for you and ask you to do the same for me. This whole issue about the translations is important but in a secondary sort of way. We were left here after the day we were saved for the following prime purposes....to bring glory and honor to our Lord and be a witness and testimony for Him that others might see Him IN US and be saved. Regardless of what we believe about this matter, the truth is that, if ridden like a hobby-horse, it can distract us from the prime objective of the spread of the Gospel.
Bro.Greg:saint:
Roby...I'm absolutely shocked that it took you 5 WHOLE DAYS to go into the attack mode on me. You must be slipping or getting old for it to go that far without comment. Yawwwwwwn. (but I didn't lose any sleep at all brother) Actually...there is NO SCRIPTURAL support for your position either.....and the manuscript evidence (I've read much of it for both sides but I am no expert by any means and I know I can't change your mind or anybody elses one way OR the other...and I'm honest enough to know and admit THAT)
Either way...next time I decide to post in here (and I'm getting to the point where I think it is a waste of God's good time:BangHead
PLEASE don't ignore me....I hate it when you ignore me:smilewinkgrin:!By the way...things that are different are not the same...Ya just can't have it both ways. A perfect, just, righteous and holy God is not gonna leave His holy Word to the whims, fancy's, and corruptions or imperfections of lost (or saved) men and women. He has protected it's inspiration, preservation, transmission, and translation into the various languages down over the years and we have it as He intended for us to have it in perfect form today whether you or others believe it or know it or not. It is a supernatural work that we can neither explain or dissect...only believe or reject. I just choose to believe it. By the same token, it is also certain that Satan has sought to counterfeit and corrupt that same Word from the very beginning because of his hatred for God and everything that God says or does. Frankly Roby....and I take absolutely no pleasure in saying this...I think you are just as deceived as you think me to be. The only thing I can think of to do is pray for you and ask you to do the same for me. This whole issue about the translations is important but in a secondary sort of way. We were left here after the day we were saved for the following prime purposes....to bring glory and honor to our Lord and be a witness and testimony for Him that others might see Him IN US and be saved. Regardless of what we believe about this matter, the truth is that, if ridden like a hobby-horse, it can distract us from the prime objective of the spread of the Gospel.
Bro.Greg:saint: