Knocking on Whose door? Rev. 3:20 Biblically reclaimed

[agedman]

Quite the contrary, if everyone's name was in the book of life originally, then God intended to save all men. It is those who turn away in unbelief whose name's are blotted out.

However, doesn't your post of Rev. 17 dispute that thinking?

And Rev. 13 specifically tells the line of demarcation between humankind is whether the names in the book of life or not.

If the names were recorded before the foundations, then it would extrapolate to further the validity of Calvinism and why Christ said with great certainty, "My sheep hear My voice..."


Look at your own post:

So, you see several things here that must not contradict itself.

#1 The scriptures always speak of a person's name being blotted out of the book of life in time. There is no mention of a person's name being added to the book of life in time.

#2 Persons who confess Jesus are those that overcometh. We know this because Jesus said he would confess their name before his Father, and Jesus said he would only confess those persons before his Father who confessed him before men. If a man denies Jesus, then Jesus will deny that man before the Father.

#3 Those who believe on Jesus from the heart and confess him are saved. A person can only believe on Jesus and confess his name in time.

#4 Those who worship the beast were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. There are two possibilities here, either these persons were never written in the book of life, or their names were blotted out of the book of life before the foundation of the world.

I personally believe everyone's name was originally written in the book of life. But those who sin against God and do not believe on him are blotted out. God knew who would not believe before the foundation of the world, this is when their name was blotted out.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
​

All of that quote from your post that can seemingly ONLY fit snugly into a Calvinistic view for all other views would have names added or subtracted AFTER the start of creation.

 

[Winman]

However, doesn't your post of Rev. 17 dispute that thinking?

And Rev. 13 specifically tells the line of demarcation between humankind is whether the names in the book of life or not.

If the names were recorded before the foundations, then it would extrapolate to further the validity of Calvinism and why Christ said with great certainty, "My sheep hear My voice..."


Look at your own post:

So, you see several things here that must not contradict itself.

#1 The scriptures always speak of a person's name being blotted out of the book of life in time. There is no mention of a person's name being added to the book of life in time.

#2 Persons who confess Jesus are those that overcometh. We know this because Jesus said he would confess their name before his Father, and Jesus said he would only confess those persons before his Father who confessed him before men. If a man denies Jesus, then Jesus will deny that man before the Father.

#3 Those who believe on Jesus from the heart and confess him are saved. A person can only believe on Jesus and confess his name in time.

#4 Those who worship the beast were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. There are two possibilities here, either these persons were never written in the book of life, or their names were blotted out of the book of life before the foundation of the world.

I personally believe everyone's name was originally written in the book of life. But those who sin against God and do not believe on him are blotted out. God knew who would not believe before the foundation of the world, this is when their name was blotted out.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
​

All of that quote from your post that can seemingly ONLY fit snugly into a Calvinistic view for all other views would have names added or subtracted AFTER the start of creation.

Not at all. Those who were not written in the book of life at the foundation of the world had been blotted out before.

But the scriptures show a person's name is blotted out in time for specific reasons (refutes Unconditional Election). In Exodus it was the gross sin of unbelief and making a golden calf. In Revelation it is adding to, or taking away from the Word of God. These events must happen in time.

Now, the only way to explain this is foreknowledge. Before the foundation of the world God knew who would fall away in unbelief, and he knew who would add or take away from his Word in time and blotted out their name. Therefore, they were not written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

The foundation of the world is a specific time, but God has existed from eternity.

So, we are elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father (1 Pet 1:2).

 

[OldRegular]

Moses of course committed sin, but what is the sin shown in this passage? It was turning away from the true God in unbelief and worshipping an idol.

Sin is sin Winman! if your interpretation is correct then there is no such thing as eternal Salvation. You have argued that initially everyone's name is in the Book of Life. You have also argued that sin will result in one's name being removed from the Book of Life. You have also argued that in time no one's name can be added to the book of life. Since Romans 3:23 tells us: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; it would appear that none can be saved.

Yes, anyone who adds to, or takes away God's words.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This passage does not say that the name of this person's who offended was ever in the Book of Life. Also notice the big IF in this passage.

 

[Winman]

Sin is sin Winman! if your interpretation is correct then there is no such thing as eternal Salvation. You have argued that initially everyone's name is in the Book of Life. You have also argued that sin will result in one's name being removed from the Book of Life. You have also argued that in time no one's name can be added to the book of life. Since Romans 3:23 tells us: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; it would appear that none can be saved.

And you are putting words in my mouth. I believe in God's foreknowledge. Of course everyone sins, and the wages of sin is death. But God also knew in his foreknowledge who would believe in Jesus and therefore have no sin. He did not blot out their name.

You can't get around it, if a person's name is blotted out of the book of life, then that person's name had to be in the book of life beforehand. God fully intended to save that person, God intended that person to have life.

And scripture shows when men turn away in unbelief, then their name is blotted out of the book of life.

Men sin in time, but the scriptures show men who were not written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. The only explanation is foreknowledge.

This passage does not say that the name of this person's who offended was ever in the Book of Life. Also notice the big IF in this passage.

This is a silly argument, God could not blot out someone's name unless it was first there.

And God does not speak idle words. He does not say things he does not mean. If he said he will blot out a person's name for certain reasons, then he will.

 

[OldRegular]

And you are putting words in my mouth. I believe in God's foreknowledge. Of course everyone sins, and the wages of sin is death. But God also knew in his foreknowledge who would believe in Jesus and therefore have no sin. He did not blot out their name.

You can't get around it, if a person's name is blotted out of the book of life, then that person's name had to be in the book of life beforehand. God fully intended to save that person, God intended that person to have life.

And scripture shows when men turn away in unbelief, then their name is blotted out of the book of life.

Men sin in time, but the scriptures show men who were not written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. The only explanation is foreknowledge.

Winman you are chasing your tail and I am really not putting words in your mouth Winman. You have stated unequivicably that before the foundation of the world every persons name was written in the Book of Life as shown in the following, Post #53 :

What you fail to see is that originally everyone's name is written in the book of life. You never read of anyone's name being written in the book of life in time, only of persons having their name blotted out. If their name is blotted out, then originally their name was in the book of life.

You have also stated unequivicably that the names of those who sin against God will be blotted out of the Book of Life as shown in the following, Post #53:

I personally believe everyone's name was originally written in the book of life. But those who sin against God and do not believe on him are blotted out. God knew who would not believe before the foundation of the world, this is when their name was blotted out.

But then there is this from Post # 62:

Not at all. Those who were not written in the book of life at the foundation of the world had been blotted out before.

Now, the only way to explain this is foreknowledge. Before the foundation of the world God knew who would fall away in unbelief, and he knew who would add or take away from his Word in time and blotted out their name. Therefore, they were not written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

You must be clear Winman. Whose name's were in the Book of Life from the Foundation of the World?

And then there is this from Post #53:

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

The only explanation for this is foreknowledge. How can a person's name be blotted out if it were not in the book of life? And we see whoever denies Jesus shall be blotted out in time. We see from Exodus 32 that a person who sins in time shall be blotted out. But we also see that some person's names were not in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

So you see Winman you cannot make up your mind as to the makeup of the Book of Life. One thing is certain. If everyones name was in the book of Life prior to the foundation of the world and sin causes the name to be blotted out and their names cannot be written back then one must conclude that none would be saved since Scripture tells us [and I repeat myself] in Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman you are chasing your tail and I am really not putting words in your mouth Winman. You have stated unequivicably that before the foundation of the world every persons name was written in the Book of Life as shown in the following, Post #53 :



You have also stated unequivicably that the names of those who sin against God will be blotted out of the Book of Life as shown in the following, Post #53:



But then there is this from Post # 62:



You must be clear Winman. Whose name's were in the Book of Life from the Foundation of the World?

And then there is this from Post #53:



So you see Winman you cannot make up your mind as to the makeup of the Book of Life. One thing is certain. If everyones name was in the book of Life prior to the foundation of the world and sin causes the name to be blotted out and their names cannot be written back then one must conclude that none would be saved since Scripture tells us [and I repeat myself] in Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Busted....:applause::applause::thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

Busted....:applause::applause::thumbs:

I try but Winman is tough! Very :tonofbricks: Tough!

 

[Amy.G]

Hey Old Regular! It's good to see you back! :wavey:

 

[Jerome]

Asterisktom, in a previous thread:

I always roll my eyes when someone plays the. . ."You can have your man's theology. Just give me the Bible" card. . .

Please.

Asterisktom, in this thread:

Maybe you get your theology from a bunch of dead guys who may or may not be right on many things. But I try to base mine on the Bible.

So do you roll your eyes at yourself when you have to resort to such rhetoric?
Bizarre.

 

[psalms109:31]

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

Those are the ones written in the lambs book of life.

Exodus 12:48
“A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the LORD’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it.

Those are the one's being included with His people to be treated as His people. They were included when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

God did not make this promise without this

Exodus 19:
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[Or possession, for the whole earth is mine. 6 You] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

These are the one's blotted out and could not enter Christ, cut out.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.

Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

Only in Christ can we be victorious.

There is hope for those who have been blotted out, cut out.

2 Corinthians 3 :13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[Or reflect] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Romans 11:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

This is what I have been called for.

Hebrews 3 :
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[Psalm 95:7,8]

16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

An unbeliever can come up with excuses not to come to Jesus without any help from the saints.

God for-known us because He has the end result of what happens in time that we are contained in and He is not.

 

[Winman]

Winman you are chasing your tail and I am really not putting words in your mouth Winman. You have stated unequivicably that before the foundation of the world every persons name was written in the Book of Life as shown in the following, Post #53 :

OK, once more I will try to explain this as simply as possible. It is impossible to blot someone's name out of the book of life unless their name is in the book of life. Can you understand that?

The scriptures speak of those whose name's are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, but that is a specific point in time. God existed in eternity before the foundation of the world. God had all names in the book of life, else they could not be blotted out. But before the foundation of the world, God in his foreknowledge already knew who would not believe and had blotted their names out.

The reason you cannot understand is because Calvinism denies that election is due to God's foreknowledge of faith in man. But the scriptures show Jesus knew from "the beginning" who believed not. If Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not, then he also knew who believed, it is a simple process of elimination.

You have also stated unequivicably that the names of those who sin against God will be blotted out of the Book of Life as shown in the following, Post #53:

Yes, people's names are blotted out in time as shown in Exodus 32 and Revelation 22. But God had foreknowledge of this before the foundation of the world.

Folks cannot commit sin before they exist, but God in his foreknowledge can know who will sin before they exist.

But then there is this from Post # 62:



You must be clear Winman. Whose name's were in the Book of Life from the Foundation of the World?

Everyone's name has to be in the book of life originally or else their name could not be blotted out. Why can't you understand this? You cannot erase the blackboard unless something is written on the blackboard. Surely you had to erase the blackboard when you were a kid?

And then there is this from Post #53:



So you see Winman you cannot make up your mind as to the makeup of the Book of Life. One thing is certain. If everyones name was in the book of Life prior to the foundation of the world and sin causes the name to be blotted out and their names cannot be written back then one must conclude that none would be saved since Scripture tells us [and I repeat myself] in Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

My mind is perfectly made up, you simply cannot understand foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is to know something that happens in time before it takes place. I gave an example from 2 Peter 3:17;

2 Pet 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

In this verse, the very same word interpreted as "foreknowledge" in 1 Peter 1:2 is translated "know before" and is speaking of men. What is Peter talking about? He had earlier warned that in the last days there will be scoffers who deny Jesus's coming. Peter is saying that they have foreknowledge of this, they "know before" it actually occurs in time.

You just don't get foreknowledge do you?

So, men commit sins in time which causes their name to be blotted out, such as adding to God's word or taking away from it. This can only happen in time when a man exists. But God knew this would take place before the foundation of the world. This is foreknowledge which you deny.

But one more time as simply as I can say it, you cannot blot someone's name out of the book of life unless it was originally there. If you cannot understand this, I cannot help you. I could have understood this when I was five years old.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

In my last response to your posts I showed that you contradict yourself on numerous occasions. Others have also commented on this same problem.

You can't get around it, if a person's name is blotted out of the book of life, then that person's name had to be in the book of life beforehand. God fully intended to save that person, God intended that person to have life.

I personally believe everyone's name was originally written in the book of life. But those who sin against God and do not believe on him are blotted out. God knew who would not believe before the foundation of the world, this is when their name was blotted out.

Not at all. Those who were not written in the book of life at the foundation of the world had been blotted out before.

Now, the only way to explain this is foreknowledge. Before the foundation of the world God knew who would fall away in unbelief, and he knew who would add or take away from his Word in time and blotted out their name. Therefore, they were not written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

How can a person's name be blotted out if it were not in the book of life? And we see whoever denies Jesus shall be blotted out in time. We see from Exodus 32 that a person who sins in time shall be blotted out. But we also see that some person's names were not in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

I have taken the liberty of highlighting certain parts of your quotes. I don't know how I can make your contradictory statements any more clear!

But one more time as simply as I can say it, you cannot blot someone's name out of the book of life unless it was originally there. If you cannot understand this, I cannot help you. I could have understood this when I was five years old.

Perhaps you could have understood the above when you were five but you sure have created a lot of confusion by the above contradictions!:BangHead::BangHead::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

[OldRegular]

Busted....:applause::applause::thumbs:

I try but Winman is tough! Very :tonofbricks: Tough!

See Iconoclast I told you Winman was tough!

 

[OldRegular]

Hey Old Regular! It's good to see you back! :wavey:

Amy

Took a peak and could not resist temptation but this is a short visit, I hope!

 

[Amy.G]

Amy

Took a peak and could not resist temptation but this is a short visit, I hope!

I hope it's not short, but I understand you need to do what's best for you. :flower:

 

[Winman]

Winman

In my last response to your posts I showed that you contradict yourself on numerous occasions. Others have also commented on this same problem.

Foreknowledge is to simply know something before it happens. Peter knew there would be scoffers who would deny Jesus's second coming. He wrote about it and warned about it before it actually took place in time.

God in his foreknowledge knows who will not believe. He can blot their names out of the book of life before they actually commit the sin that causes their name to be blotted out. Just as Peter could write about these scoffers before they actually came along.

I know this is confusing to you, because you have been taught that God elects a person unconditionally and not upon any foreknown faith in the believer. But the scriptures are clear that God knows who will believe and who will not before it actually takes place.

God blotting out a person's name does not cause this person to be lost, it is just that God infallibly knows who will not believe, just as God knew and predicted Judas would betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver. God did not cause this, the scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin.

Now, if God does not tempt any man to sin (and he doesn't) and yet he could predict Judas would betray Jesus, then this must be accounted to foreknowledge. God could, and did write that Judas would betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver before it actually happened in time. Can you understand this?

The fact that you cannot understand this does not refute it. I cannot understand how God spoke the universe into existence, but I believe he did. Likewise, the scriptures show that God knows who will believe not, and therefore he also knows who will believe.

I have taken the liberty of highlighting certain parts of your quotes. I don't know how I can make your contradictory statements any more clear!

I actually understand why you think it is a contradiction. To have foreknowledge of something does not mean it has happened yet, that is the definition of foreknowledge.

God's foreknowledge includes the foreknowledge of his own actions. God would blot someone's name out in time for a certain offense (that must happen in time), but God could blot his name out of the book of life before the foundation of the world according to foreknowledge.

God's foreknowledge simply knows what will happen. If a man never believes, God knew that before time and could blot his name out. If in that man's lifetime the man believes in time, then God infallibly knows this beforehand and does not blot out his name.

Perhaps you could have understood the above when you were five but you sure have created a lot of confusion by the above contradictions!:BangHead::BangHead::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

The scriptures never once say a man's name is added to the book of life, although that did have to happen originally, but the scriptures always speak of a person's name being blotted out. Jesus said to those that overcome, he will not blot out their name from the book of life. This means that those who do not overcome will have their names blotted out.

But you cannot blot out something that isn't there. You cannot erase a blackboard if nothing is written on the blackboard.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Winman
In my last response to your posts I showed that you contradict yourself on numerous occasions. Others have also commented on this same problem.

I have taken the liberty of highlighting certain parts of your quotes. I don't know how I can make your contradictory statements any more clear!

Perhaps you could have understood the above when you were five but you sure have created a lot of confusion by the above contradictions!:BangHead::BangHead::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

At first glance...this does appear contradictory.... I had to re-read what Win said numerous times....but This is his qualifier....read carefully:

[initially by Winman]...The scriptures speak of those whose name's are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, but that is a specific point in time. God existed in eternity before the foundation of the world. God had all names in the book of life, else they could not be blotted out. But before the foundation of the world, God in his foreknowledge already knew who would not believe and had blotted their names out.

This might be re-worded for more clarity....but it is not contradiction in view of what he says here.

 

[Winman]

At first glance...this does appear contradictory.... I had to re-read what Win said numerous times....but This is his qualifier....read carefully:

This might be re-worded for more clarity....but it is not contradiction in view of what he says here.

Thank you HoS, you read carefully what I said. Everybody assumes that the foundation of the world means eternity, but it does not. That was a specific point in time.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Note the word "from", this means either precisely when the world was founded, or afterward, but it excludes before. This means that a person's name is blotted out in time. Time began when the world was founded (in the beginning). Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe not.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

However, foreknowledge means to know something before it actually occurs in time. God could know before the foundation of the world who would believe and elect or choose them according to foreknowledge.

 

[asterisktom]

Asterisktom, in a previous thread:


Asterisktom, in this thread:


So do you roll your eyes at yourself when you have to resort to such rhetoric?
Bizarre.

No, what is bizarre is that you had to root around in the archives all the way back to January of last year to get this supposed contradiction.

And as far as that goes (the supposed contradiction) you need to read the context in which I wrote those two quotes.

Of course, I don't expect you to do that, Jerome. That is too much work. It is more fun to read for ammunition than for understanding.

 

[OldRegular]

At first glance...this does appear contradictory.... I had to re-read what Win said numerous times....but This is his qualifier....read carefully:

This might be re-worded for more clarity....but it is not contradiction in view of what he says here.

I reread him numerous times and responded each time. His comments regarding the Book of Life contradict each other. The quote you presented is itself a contradiction.

[initially by Winman]...The scriptures speak of those whose name's are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, but that is a specific point in time. God existed in eternity before the foundation of the world. God had all names in the book of life, else they could not be blotted out. But before the foundation of the world, God in his foreknowledge already knew who would not believe and had blotted their names out.

So you and Winman would have us believe that God wrote all names in the Book of Life just so He could erase them. You have omnipotent, omniscient God playing games. Shame on you