Latent Marxism II

[Crabtownboy]

Life was much better 80% of Americans were working poor who had to spend half their life's energy to get enough calories to stay alive. Back when the cities had wood sidewalks the poor people could pry up the planks and burn them to stay warm in the winter. That circumstance was much more equitable than the food stamp program.

Yes, it was wonderful. We had poor houses, poor farms and the poor were equally left to starve in many places. Also, there was all that horse manure to scoop up daily off the city streets. Diptheria, whooping cough, and other diseases were very democratic in killing off the poor.

IMHO many on this board have no idea what life was like for people back then ... and many have no idea what Marxism really is. I wonder how many have read any of Marx's writings?

Of course for some all you have to do to be a Marxist and a liberal here is to disagree with them. If would be funny if it were not so sad.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, it was wonderful. We had poor houses, poor farms and the poor were equally left to starve in many places. Also, there was all that horse manure to scoop up daily off the city streets. Diptheria, whooping cough, and other diseases were very democratic in killing off the poor.

None of these ills were solved by the government.

 

[menageriekeeper]

What do you suggest we do with the poor, Aaron?

You know, the Bible says, "if you have two coats and your brother has none, give him one of yours" (Cindi paraphrase of Luke 3:11) But you seem to think that such an idea is Marxist. And Christ didn't give any qualifiers like Paul did about working and eating........Oh wait, I know why. Its because Christ was talking about people in general and Paul was talking about church members shouldn't take advantage of each other.

So, back the question? Was Christ an early Marxist because He thought one should give half of his clothes to those who had none?

 

[targus]

What do you suggest we do with the poor, Aaron?

You know, the Bible says, "if you have two coats and your brother has none, give him one of yours" (Cindi paraphrase of Luke 3:11) But you seem to think that such an idea is Marxist. And Christ didn't give any qualifiers like Paul did about working and eating........Oh wait, I know why. Its because Christ was talking about people in general and Paul was talking about church members shouldn't take advantage of each other.

So, back the question? Was Christ an early Marxist because He thought one should give half of his clothes to those who had none?

Some thoughts...

Jesus did not say that governments should tax citizens to collect money to care for the poor. Jesus said that we should care for the poor ourselves.

Also, Jesus did not sell the perfume to give to the poor. He said that the poor would always be among us.

How much do you give to the poor yourself? Not how much do you give to your church - how much do you give to the poor?

Do you have any money left over after you pay your most basic living expenses? Do you give all of that to the poor?

If not - why not?

Why do some want to care for the poor with the money of others but don't do the same with their own?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Some thoughts...

Jesus did not say that governments should tax citizens to collect money to care for the poor. Jesus said that we should care for the poor ourselves.

I do not know where Jesus said it is not all right for governments to tax people to help take care of the poor. [Your argument here is a red herring.] Also, if churches did take care of the poor the government would not have to.

Also, Jesus did not sell the perfume to give to the poor. He said that the poor would always be among us.

So let them starve and die without health-care.

How much do you give to the poor yourself? Not how much do you give to your church - how much do you give to the poor?

To gain credibility tell us how much you have spent to help the poor.

Do you have any money left over after you pay your most basic living expenses? Do you give all of that to the poor?

Do you?

If not - why not?

Why do some want to care for the poor with the money of others but don't do the same with their own?

Why do you not want the poor helped?

 

[Crabtownboy]

None of these ills were solved by the government.

Hmmm, perhaps not totally solved, but certainly it is much better today that back then.

 

[targus]

So let them starve and die without health-care.

No one is saying that - so why do you put words in my mouth?

I think that we should care for the poor with our own money - not someone else's money taken from them by force.

To gain credibility tell us how much you have spent to help the poor.

I am not the one advocating taking another person's money by force to help the poor.

If someone supports such an idea then it is my belief that that person should first be willing to donate their excess.

An unwillingness to give your own money but then advocating taking another's money instead is shallow and insincere.

Do you? If not - why not?

I'm not advocating taking money from someone else to support my beliefs. So it's not about me.

Why do you not want the poor helped?

No one has said any such thing. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I do not know where Jesus said it is not all right for governments to tax people to help take care of the poor. [Your argument here is a red herring.] Also, if churches did take care of the poor the government would not have to.

Show me where the Bible endorses any government other than self-reliance. You are adding to scripture.

Why do you not want the poor helped?

THAT is a red herring.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Crabtown answered quite well for me, but let me add a couple of things

How much do you give to the poor yourself? Not how much do you give to your church - how much do you give to the poor?

Well in the last couple of weeks I have paid the water bill of one who couldn't afford and bought 3 pairs of new shoes for children whose daddy had been laid off and who were literally wearing their summer crocks in the middle of winter. I give as I see the need and have the resources. Which brings us to:

Do you have any money left over after you pay your most basic living expenses? Do you give all of that to the poor?

Sometimes I have money left and sometimes I don't. But I'm also not the one complaining that my tax dollar goes to fund programs thta benefit the poor, the disabled and the elderly. OR that I must be socialist leaning since I don't.

Why do some want to care for the poor with the money of others but don't do the same with their own?

Exactly the attitude that led to the government taking over or creating these programs in the first place. If WE CHRISTIANS did our job better the government wouldn't have too. But since nowdays there are not enough of us to even make a dent the best we can hope for is to help those we can and quit complaining when the government helps those we can't with our tax money.

Christ paid his taxes without complaining period. He didn't even ask what Ceasar planned to do with His money.

 

[billwald]

If the Christians were doing a good job in the 1930s maybe voters would not have encouraged the government to take over the job the Church was doing.

 

[Revmitchell]

No one is saying that - so why do you put words in my mouth?

because he is intellectually dishonest and cannot support his argument.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Show me where the Bible endorses any government other than self-reliance. You are adding to scripture.

You are kidding right?

The Bible has endorsed all sorts of governments all through the book, from Pharohs all the way down to Ceasar. And told us to pray for those in authority over us. Might I remind you of:

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Not only, but the government that God Himself designed called for all debts to be cancelled every 7 years. How would you like that rule to still be enforced today?

 

[Johnv]

Why do you not want the poor helped?

I don't believe the issue is one of wanting or not wanting the poor to be helped. The issue is one of to what extent it is the responsibility of the government to do so.

On one hand, it can be said that, if charitable agencies were doing their job, there would be no need for the government to do so. OTOH, it can be said that, if the government supported charities in their work, then it would be easier for charities to do their job. I suspect the reality lies somewhere inbetween.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I think that we should care for the poor with our own money - not someone else's money taken from them by force.

If someone supports such an idea then it is my belief that that person should first be willing to donate their excess.

An unwillingness to give your own money but then advocating taking another's money instead is shallow and insincere.

You asked the question of others and one person answered. So, since you brought up the question you should be willing to answer what you ask others .............

How much have you given to help the poor recently? Do you live the philosophy your describe above?

 

[targus]

You asked the question of others and one person answered. So, since you brought up the question you should be willing to answer what you ask others .............

How much have you given to help the poor recently? Do you live the philosophy your describe above?

Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem as I already addressed this point.

My question was asked in a particular context - that being of someone who advocates taking money by force from others to give to others.

I do not advocate such a system therefore questions as to my personal giving are irrelevant.

No doubt you either will still not understand or will pretend to still not understand.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

None of these ills were solved by the government.

Big bad government. Let's go back to the days before child labor laws. Why should kids get a free ride. It's every person for themselves. Make them earn their way.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

You are kidding right?

The Bible has endorsed all sorts of governments all through the book, from Pharohs all the way down to Ceasar. And told us to pray for those in authority over us. Might I remind you of:

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Not only, but the government that God Himself designed called for all debts to be cancelled every 7 years. How would you like that rule to still be enforced today?

You failed to dosprove my statement. You failed to even address my statement. I'd really like to see where he endorsed the Pharohs. What form of govrnment did he originally give Israel ?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem as I already addressed this point.

I do not advocate such a system therefore questions as to my personal giving are irrelevant.

I was sure you would not answer. As your earlier replies say you believe that individuals and churches should help. Do you really believe this? Thus the question was and is a legitimate question, especially since you ask others. So, how much have you given to help the poor recently? Fair question. You asked it first. Do not ask questions your do not want to answer ... and do not weasel around when the question you ask is ask of you.

My guess is your money does not go where your mouth is. :laugh::laugh:

 

[targus]

I was sure you would not answer. As your earlier replies say you believe that individuals and churches should help. Do you really believe this? Thus the question was and is a legitimate question, especially since you ask others. So, how much have you given to help the poor recently? Fair question. You asked it first. Do not ask questions your do not want to answer ... and do not weasel around when the question you ask is ask of you.

My guess is your money does not go where your mouth is. :laugh::laugh:

Nope, you guess wrong.

I am simply not boasting as you are want to do.

So it seems the laugh is on you. :laugh:

 

[menageriekeeper]

You failed to dosprove my statement. You failed to even address my statement. I'd really like to see where he endorsed the Pharohs. What form of govrnment did he originally give Israel ?

Let me see:

Endorsing the rule of the Pharohs: Gen 39, when He saw to it that Egypt had a man like Joseph to keep them from the famine that was affecting the country and those countries that surrounded it.

Which statement haven't I disproved? The one where you ask if God approves of governments forcing the taxes from people's pockets? Yeah, I addresssed that. Christ said to render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's and paid His taxes!

What government did God originally give Isreal? Why don't you explain it to me? While you are at it, why don't you explain how that government dealt with its poor. Its in there, are you up to the challenge?