Law of Christ

[Chemnitz]

By the way, I do not whine,I just expose false teachers such as yourself. You are the one complaining, not me! And, I will say and present the truth in the manner of my choosing, not yours!
If you do not like it, do not respond to me or post false doctrine. Otherwise, you will continue to be exposed and corrected.

Defensive aren't we. You haven't exposed anything. Except a disturbing lack of ability to read other people's posts.

I will repeat myself once again, never have I said that Abraham or anybody else was justified by a dead faith.

Jesus didn't prooftext, he quoted. There is a difference.

You know if you aren't going to bother reading my posts, I am not even going to bother responding.

BTW you are the only one making false accusations. I only speak the truth.

[ December 11, 2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
I would like to know the book, chapter and verses that teach Abraham was ever justified by a dead faith or disobedience.

Rom.4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham was justified by faith and faith alone. He was not justified by faith plus works.
He was not justified by dead faith.
He was not justified by disobedience.
He was not justified by a redefined "living" faith.
He was not justified by faith plus baptism
He was not justified by faith plus circumcision

He was justified by faith, and by faith alone.

Understand what the Bible says here Frank:

"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
Simple enough?
DHK

 

[Frank]

Chem:
Jesus used quotes from the Old Testament as proof-texts for his deity. John 9:33-38, Psalms 82:6.

Jesus used a quote as a proof-text for the levitical marriage law and the staus of the redeemed in heaven. Mat. 22:28-32.

 

[Frank]

DHK:
James 2:21 says,: Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED by WORKS when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?" SEE GEN. 22:1-17.
Hebrews 11:6-10," 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he SOJOURNED in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. SEE GEN. 12:1-4.
By the way believed is an ACTION VERB. Yes, when Abraham obeyed, sojourned offered he BELIEVED God. God knew he believed. Gen. 22:12,13, says," 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. Verse 18 says, " 18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; BECAUSE THOU HAST OBEYED MY VOICE." Gal. 3:26-29, Roms. 4:1-4, Romans 6:17,18, Hebrews 5:8,9, II Thes. 1:6-9. The answer to James' Rhetorical question is YES.

Believe is an ACTION VERB.
This is ALL the evidence on the posts from the new testament as it pertains to Abraham in this matter. Just take all the information and let the book interpret itself. Simple enough!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
James 2:21 says,: Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED by WORKS when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?" SEE GEN. 22:1-17.

You see all Scripture through James 2, but do not understand what James is talking about. Therefore you have a completely warped view of salvation, particularly justification by faith. In order for your theology to make any sense you have to redefine words: "faith" (living, active, dead, etc)
"works" (you have listed so many, I don't know where to begin). A work is a work is a work.
Abraham was justified by faith. That is the teaching of the totality of Scripture, as you like
to put it. James was written with a different purpose in mind, and until you see that you will never understand justification.
DHK

 

[Frank]

DHK:
Using the scriptures prove James wrote with a different purpose in mind!! Since it seems so obvious to you, surely it must be found in the scriptures. Using the scriptures, prove James did not mean what he said in James 2:21-24. Provide the totality and harmonious evidence about Abraham that proves your assertion. James is referring to Gen. 22. Can you prove your assertion from the text James is using to teach us we are justified by works of faith. God inspired James to use this example to teach us James 2:21-24.

 

[Chemnitz]

So just how many works does it take to be righteous before God?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
DHK:
Using the scriptures prove James wrote with a different purpose in mind!! Since it seems so obvious to you, surely it must be found in the scriptures.

Yes it is obvious. Are you an atheist Frank?
An absurd question perhaps.
It is just as absurd to believe that the Bible teaches "There is no God" from Psalm 14:1, as it is to teach "Abraham was justified by works," from the Book of James. Just as every verse has its own context, so too does every paragraph, every chapter and also every book.

Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

Be a fool if you want, and proclaim from the Bible that there is no God; it is in there.
Be a fool if you want, and proclaim from the Bible that Abraham was justified by works; it is in there also. But only a fool would believe it taken out of the context of the book that it is written in.

Why is it in every other passage of Scripture in the entire Bible that Abraham is mentioned, Abraham is always referred to as a man who is justified by faith, and never by works. Why just in this one book is he mentioned as being justified by works? You don't think James could have had another purpose in writing other than writing down theological concepts, do you Frank? Every Book has its purpose. Every book is unique. If we fail to understand that we will fail to understand the Scripture.

James was not speaking of salvation. James was speaking to Christians of practical Christian living. Read through the book and see how many times he addresses his readers "my brethren." He is addressing the saints of God, the saved. And yet he calls them "adulterers and adulteresses," "the enemies of God," and uses other strong terminology in teaching practical Christian living. In James 2, he is speaking of the works that must follow one's salvation. He puts forth a challenge, "show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works." Our faith is demonstrated by our works. Faith in Christ always comes first. Christ changes the person. Then the fruit of that person is the works. If there are no works then perhaps, James is saying there was no salvation. That is what he meant when he said "Faith without works is dead, being alone." The Book of James is a book meant for practical Christian living. It doesn not center around theology, per se. Until you understand the difference you will never understand faith or justification.
DHK

 

[Frank]

DHK:
The problem for you is faith that pleases God is always active. You try to seperate that which God connects. And, as is your custom, you did not answer the argument made from the text. It is obvious that you do not understand that faith pleases God when it is active. It is by an active faith Abraham was justifed, not works of merit!!!! The Bible says so! James 2:21-24, Hebrews 11:6-10,17, Gen. 22:1-18. Abraham was justifed after he offered Isaac, not before.In Gen. 22:12, the Bible says," And he said lay not thine hand upon the lad neither do anything unot him: for NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not with held thy son, thine only son from me." In Gen 22:18, the Bible says, " And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed because thou hast OBEYED my voice." In James 2:21, the Bible says, " Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Issac his son upon the altar?" In James 2:24, the Bible says," Ye see then how that works a man is justified, not by faith only." In James 2:14, the Bible says," What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith , and have not works? can faith SAVE him?"
James was discussing salvation and spirtural blessings. The text quoted so states. In fact James begins his book by addressing the topic of salvation. James 1:18-21, James 2:14-26,James 5:16,17. Three of the five chapters of James discuss salvation directly. Chapter four does so by implication. Furthermore, BIBLICAL FAITH IS ALWAYS ACTIVE. ABRAHAM IS NO EXCEPTION! If Abraham had not been active in his faith he would not have been a man of faith, nor the friend of God. The Bible says so in every account of Abraham in the Old and New Testament. Gen 12:1-5, Gen. 12:1,2 Gen. 22:1-17.
You have not adressed the argument from the scriptures. You have made an attempt to assert your false theology as fact without scriptural support. You do so by ignoring the fact that Biblical saving faith is always active. NO EXCEPTIONS!
You attempt to ignore the context and the argument by asking questions to avoid the your unfortunate predicament of not having Abraham saved without and obedient active faith. Your idea of proof is trying to change the meaning of that which is expressly written. As you phrase it, let me explain it to you."
Men today are saved by the same obedient active working faith as Abraham. Mat. 8:11, Hebrews 11:6-10. The Bible says so. In Galatians 3:26-29 the Bible says, "26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Every book does have a purpose. It is to reveal truth that saves man's soul. By the way, JAMES says in James 1:18, "8Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. In verse 21 and 22, James says, " 21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

It will read that way on the day of judgment, too. NO FOOLING!

 

[Frank]

Chem:
The same number required of Abraham. It requires complete submission to the will of God. You do not think a man may submit to some of the commands and be made righteous do you? If so, which one may you disobey? And, how do you know?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
The problem for you is faith that pleases God is always active. You try to seperate that which God connects. And, as is your custom, you did not answer the argument made from the text. It is obvious that you do not understand that faith pleases God when it is active.

Why must you redefine faith in order to make your theological concepts work?
DHK

 

[Chemnitz]

The same number required of Abraham. It requires complete submission to the will of God. You do not think a man may submit to some of the commands and be made righteous do you? If so, which one may you disobey? And, how do you know?

So how do you know that you will go to heaven? How do you know if you have complete submission. You know no work is every good enough for God.

 

[BobRyan]

DHK to Frank You see all Scripture through James 2

Indeed Frank - maybe you should also consider Romans 2

For it is not the hearers of the Law that are just before God but the Doers of the Law will be Justified Rom 2:13

Or do you prefer the Words of Christ Himself in Matt 7 speaking EVEN in the pre-Cross context "Not everyone who Says 'Lord Lord' will Enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he who Does the Will of My Father"

There is certainly no reason to stick to James 2 alone.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So how do you know that you will go to heaven? How do you know if you have complete submission. You know no work is every good enough for God.

It is not a question of being "good enough" - you are either saved or lost.

You are either born-again with the Law written on your heart under the New Covenant by God the Holy spirit - or you are lost and totally depraved humanity living according to the dictates of the sinful nature.

The whole argument of "blessed rebellion against God's Law" is simply a form of confusion about what it means to be in harmony with God - having His law written on the heart under the New Covenant promise of Romans 2:13-16 Heb 8:8-12.

Embracing that New Covenant promise means "establishing the Law of God by Faith" Romans 3:31 - not "Holy rebellion against God's Law".

So we are to "Speak and act as those who are to be judged by the Law of Liberty" - the 10 commandments according to James 2:12

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

It is not a question of being "good enough" - you are either saved or lost.

You are right; it is not a question of being good enough to get to Heaven. No, rather:

How bad do you have to be to go to Hell?

 

[Frank]

Bob:
I used James 2:21-24 because of the example of Abraham and the volume of scriptrue available as a commentary on James 2:21-24.
As for being good enough, God does not require flawlessness but faithfulness. Rev. 2:10. Abraham was not perfect but was faithful in his walk with God. He was able to be called a friend of God because of his obedient faith IN GOD, not himself!
Some misunderstand obedient faith as God owing them salvation or them meriting such. This is a false assumption void of scriptural support. An obedient active faith does not mean one earns salvation. The one who wills his gifts to others may indeed, and does in the case of God, require certain conditions to be met. One may not inherit unless the conditions are met. The heir may lose his inheritance because he fails to meet the conditions of the will. II Thes. 1:6-9, I Pet. 1:1-6.
I appreciate your scriptual references in your last post. Have a good day.

 

[DHK]

Frank,
I am sinless. I am perfect, completely holy and without sin. I am righteous and justified completely. I am forever and completely sanctified. And if I were to die right now I would be ushered straight into the presence of God and be accepted as one of the saints of God, with no questions asked. I would not be judged on the basis of my works. For before God I will stand sinless and perfectly holy. I will enter Heaven based on my holiness for it is impossible for an unholy person to stand before a holy and righteous God. I have no sin Frank. Jesus forgave it all: past, present, and future. I have no righteous of my own (i.e. self-righteousness). When God looks on me He sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. He does not see my sin, my own self-righteousness, or my pride. He sees only the righteousness of Jesus Christ which covers all of that. I stand before God: completely sinless and completely holy and righteous. I have been justified by the blood of Christ. It is only the blood of Christ that can accomplish this. It is only the blood of Christ that can make an atonement for my sins and justify me--just as if I had never sinned.
Christ can forgive my sin because He atoned for them. He was the only one that could do that. No one else could ever make the sacrifice that Christ made. He was the one that paid the penalty for my sins. There was nothing for me to do. He paid the penalty in full, "not in part but the whole." I stand before God sinless, justified, and righteous because by faith I have accepted His sacrifice, and He has clothed me with his righteousness, and given me that legal standing before Him.

You, along with MEE, ONENESS, and Bob, and the Catholics have no such standing. You all have one thing in common. You are trusting in your works and not in the sacrificial blood of Christ alone. Frank, you say that faith in Christ plus baptism equals salvation. But the Bible says faith in Christ. Mee and Oneness say the same thing, But the Bible says that only Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation. Bob says that faith in Christ plus keeping the Sabbath equals salvation. But the Bible says only faith in Christ in necessary for salvation. The Catholics say that faith in Christ plus the sacraments equals salvation, whereas the Bible says that faith alone in Christ is necessary for salvation. If it is not faith alone, then it is of works, and you diminish from the work of Christ. You are saying that the blood of Christ was not sufficient, therefore I have to be baptized, therefore I have to keep the Sabbath, therefore I have to speak in tongues, therefore I have to keep the sacraments, etc. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." "Whosoever shall upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved."
DHK

 

[Frank]

DHK:
Your post is without scriptural reference or support as are many other things you espouse.

1. Misrepresentation One. No one in this discussion has claimed to trust in their own works. I certainly have not. This is a misrepresentation of true biblical faith. Man must place his faith in Christ. Eph. 3:12, Gal. 3:26,27.
MIsrepresentation Two. I do not believe that faith in Christ plus baptism equals salvation. Your statement contradicts itself!.Biblical faith requires baptism to get in Christ. Gal. 3:26,27. The Bible says so. You do not. But, I believe the Bible.
Misrepresentation Three. I diminish the work of Christ. No, I actually exhalt his work by submitting to his will in order to be saved by faith. Hebrews 5:8,9, Hebrews 11:6, John 3:36, I Cor. 10:31, Col. 3:17. Mat. 28:18-20. I trust in the redemptive work of Christ. Eph. 3:12.

Misrepresentation Four. Faith in Christ only is necessary for salvation. James 2:21, Hebrews 5:8,9 John 3:36, II Thes. 1:6-9, Romans 6:17,18, Luke 13:3, Mat. 10:32, Romans 10:10, John 8:24, Mk. 16:16, Rev. 1:5, Hebrews 9:22, Acts 15:11.

As for your personal testimony about being sinless, perfect, sanctified forever, perfectly holy, The Bible teaches otherwise. I John 4:1, II Tim. 4:1-4, II Pet. 2:1, Gal. 5:4, Acts 5:1,2;8:12-22, Gal. 6:1,2, James 5:16, II Pet. 2:20-22, Rev. 20:10.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
1. Misrepresentation One. No one in this discussion has claimed to trust in their own works. I certainly have not.

MIsrepresentation Two. I do not believe that faith in Christ plus baptism equals salvation.

Your statement contradicts itself!.Biblical faith requires baptism to get in Christ.

Need I say more. "Biblical faith requires baptism to get in Christ."
Faith requires baptism. In other words, faith plus baptism equals salvation. Baptism is a work. According to your own words you have to work your way to Heaven through your baptism. Christ's shed blood, his sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient enough for you. You have to add baptism to the equation because you didn't think that Christ was perfect enough to die for your sins. It is a slap in the face to the sacrficial work of Christ, yea, to Christ Himself. You are saying that He and His work are not good enough for you, and therefore you have to be baptized. Shame on you!
DHK

 

[Frank]

DHK:
Your argument is without merit. The Bible teaches a number of elements are essential to salvation. You are trying to build a straw man argument. The Bible teaches one must be baptized for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38. Jesus connects belief and Baptism,not seperates it or makes it non- essential to salvation. Mk. 16:16. In each account of conversion in the Bible belief and baptsim are ALWAYS connected. Acts 18:8;16:30-33;8:36-39;12,13. They are inseperable entities in the process of salvation. Acts 18:8;16:30-33;8:36-39;12,13. God chose baptism as his operation to save through the power of the resurrected Christ. Col. 2:12. Baptism is the method by which one is washed in the blood of Christ. Rev. 1;5, Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16. Without blood,spirit, and water their is no cleansing. The Bible says so! John 3:3-5, I Peter 1: 18,19, Hebrews 10:23.
Your testimony is uninspired and therefore, carries no evidential support for faith. Personal testimonies are about as useful for establishing truth as an empty water pistol at a house fire.