Leaning Calvinist, Push me in, or Pull me back

[prophecy70]

Regarding John 6 and others, In a recent discussion with Non- Calvinists I was responded back to by this....

"I would posit that the context suggests that those who were drawn by the Father in the passage, were those who believed in Jesus prior to HIs first coming. Verse 45 reveals that they were those who were "taught by the Father". IOW they believed what Moses wrote about Jesus (5:46). They were a specific group of people and, as such, this is not a universal teaching about universal "drawing". Just as those that were "given" to Jesus by the Father (v. 37) were specific people (pre-existing disciples) - (and not chosen-to be saved-before time-elected-ones), these "drawn" ones were specific people who *came* to Jesus through proper motivation.

Since this passage concerns a specific setting and time frame, we should be able to acknowledge that the (literal) issues in the passage no longer exist. IE the Father is no longer giving people to Jesus, as that scenario existed only while Jesus walked the earth. John 17 reveals that Jesus did not lose any of those the Father gave Him (except one). So, the "giving" is obsolete in our day.

In our day, we can rely on the knowledge that it was Jesus who drew all men to Him when He was crucified. His death provided for a universal atonement - distinct from universal salvation. The gift of God is eternal life (Romans 6:23) and all men are able to choose for themselves to receive the gift or reject it. Re Eph 2:8, it is not faith that is the gift there. Salvation is the antecedent pertaining to the gift in view.

Ephesians 2:8 It is "Grace" that is the Gift. It is through that Grace that we can achieve Salvation. Grace is Gods Gift in the sacrifice of his own Son for our atonement. "Faith" is the Act of Accepting Grace. Faith is a Choice. Grace was giving to the :"whole" world. All have choice to accept it through faith.

So Jesus gets their "attention" (Challenges them) by telling them (verse 44) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Now that he has their attention, he completes his teaching with verse 45 telling them that all "can" (not "will") be drawn to him. The Choice to "Learn" is up to them. They have already gotten the lesson.

Jesus died for MANKIND (see 1 Tim 2:3) and individual men and women must exercise faith in order to be saved. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God chooses who will be saved ."

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

It doesn't appear that you are leaning too far into Calvinism. My advice would be to let the Word of God convince you.

 

[prophecy70]

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

It doesn't appear that you are leaning too far into Calvinism. My advice would be to let the Word of God convince you.

It was only a topic starter...... I know what I know....People may post what they want, and go from there.

 

[Iconoclast]

prophecy70,

Regarding John 6 and others, In a recent discussion with Non- Calvinists I was responded back to by this....

"I would posit that the context suggests that those who were drawn by the Father in the passage, were those who believed in Jesus prior to HIs first coming. Verse 45 reveals that they were those who were "taught by the Father". IOW they believed what Moses wrote about Jesus (5:46). They were a specific group of people and, as such, this is not a universal teaching about universal "drawing". Just as those that were "given" to Jesus by the Father (v. 37) were specific people (pre-existing disciples) - (and not chosen-to be saved-before time-elected-ones), these "drawn" ones were specific people who *came* to Jesus through proper motivation.

Since this passage concerns a specific setting and time frame, we should be able to acknowledge that the (literal) issues in the passage no longer exist.

lol....except that John quotes from Isa54.....speaking of Kingdom expansion by way of Gentile inclusion

 

[prophecy70]

prophecy70,


lol....except that John quotes from Isa54.....speaking of Kingdom expansion by way of Gentile inclusion

Thank you, I was waiting for someone to pick this mumbo jumbo apart.

 

[TCassidy]

My advice would be to let the Word of God convince you.

Amen! And if he relies totally on the word of God, and not on the fallen philosophy of men, he will come to accept all 5 points.

 

[prophecy70]

Amen! And if he relies totally on the word of God, and not on the fallen philosophy of men, he will come to accept all 5 points.

I really enjoy your responses on these posts. I do accept all 5 points in essence. I'm just wanting to learn more about them.

 

[Iconoclast]

I really enjoy your responses on these posts. I do accept all 5 points in esssence. I'm just wanting to learn more about them.

What is most convincing is if you try to consider what the others say and figure out the mental gymnastics they do to avoid truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you, I was waiting for someone to pick this mumbo jumbo apart.

Gentiles are flooding into the Kingdom, lengthen the cords, strengthen the stakes.
God's covenant promises are unfolding exactly as planned.
THE servant of the Lord spoken of from isa40 ,42,,49,53....right till the end of the book...is saving jew and gentiles in one body as planned.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I really enjoy your responses on these posts. I do accept all 5 points in essence. I'm just wanting to learn more about them.

Then there is a book you should read...paperback & not expensive, The Doctrines of Grace by James Montgomery Boice & Philip Ryken

 

[prophecy70]

Then there is a book you should read...paperback & not expensive, The Doctrines of Grace by James Montgomery Boice & Philip Ryken

I have read it! I also have the Potters Freedom (James White) and Chosen by God (RC Sproul). Books are Great, but actual real live people I can talk to is better

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I know what I know....

Where, then, do you stand on the 5 tenets of Calvinism?

I can go along with Total Depravity; although, I would probably define it different than my Calvinist friends (I would say brothers but I'm not sure if they think I'm one of the elect or not ). I can also go along with Perseverance of the Saints under the same caveat.

I would have significant disagreement regarding Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible Grace.

Again, where do you stand on these issues?

 

[TCassidy]

I can go along with Total Depravity; although, I would probably define it different than my Calvinist friends (I would say brothers but I'm not sure if they think I'm one of the elect or not ).

The fall ruined man. All of him. Body. Soul. And Spirit. The totality of man, all three parts, were affected by the fall.

And, do you believe that Christ died on the cross for your sins, was buried, and rose again the third for your justification? Faith is the proof of election. If you believe you are one of the elect. Only you can know that you really believe, but we will take your word for it.

I would have significant disagreement regarding Unconditional Election,

What condition of absolute perfection did you meet that forced God to have to save you?

Limited Atonement,

Will all unbelievers, demons, and Satan be saved? If not, then you too limit the atonement to believers.

Irresistible Grace.

What part of God's Grace failed to accomplish what He intended it to accomplish? And if God is such a failure, can He be trusted with anything else?

I can also go along with Perseverance of the Saints under the same caveat.

If a person cannot lose his salvation, he will, by definition persevere, because he is preserved in Christ, and Christ cannot deny Himself.

Again, where do you stand on these issues?

I believe all 5 Heads of Doctrine are what the bible clearly teaches when we approach it with an open mind and without a preconceived bias.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

What condition of absolute perfection did you meet that forced God to have to save you?

The same level of perfect obedience that was met by the Children of Israel when they applied the blood of the lamb to their doorposts. And, it was Hebrews 6:18 that forced God to save me, hallelujah! I met His condition and He kept His word!

Will all unbelievers, demons, and Satan be saved? If not, then you too limit the atonement to believers.

Red Herring. I'm not a Universalist. God commands all men to repent (Acts 17:30), and I believe all men can but that doesn't mean that men will. And, yes, I believe this is limited to human beings...that doesn't make me a Calvinist.

What part of God's Grace failed to accomplish what He intended it to accomplish? And if God is such a failure, can He be trusted with anything else?

Is that you're definition of IG? That God's grace will accomplish all that He intends it to accomplish?

If a person cannot lose his salvation, he will, by definition persevere, because he is preserved in Christ, and Christ cannot deny Himself.

I agree.

 

[TCassidy]

The same level of perfect obedience that was met by the Children of Israel when they applied the blood of the lamb to their doorposts. And, it was Hebrews 6:18 that forced God to save me, hallelujah! I met His condition and He kept His word!

So are you claiming that, before you were saved, you had some sort of sinless perfection that allowed you to come to God on your own merits apart from Christ?

Red Herring.

No Bob. And the fact you try to claim it is a red herring is evidence you can't honestly answer the question. The fact is that you too believe, teach, and preach a limited atonement. You even admit it in the next response.

You indicate you think the atonement has something to do with us. It doesn't. It is all about Christ. Those whose sins have been atoned are without sin and on their way to heaven. Those whose sins have not been atoned are still in their sin and on their way to hell. You say the atonement has been applied to everybody. That cannot be true for if it were applied to everybody, everybody would be saved. The fact is that the atonement is only applied to believers.

I believe this is limited to human beings.

You believe, teach, and preach limited atonement!

Is that you're definition of IG? That God's grace will accomplish all that He intends it to accomplish?

Yes. God's Grace is efficacious. It always accomplishes exactly what He intended it to accomplish.

And His Saving Grace will save everyone He intended it to save.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

So are you claiming that, before you were saved, you had some sort of sinless perfection that allowed you to come to God on your own merits apart from Christ?

I am not, and further more, there is nothing whatsoever in my response that would even imply such. But, you definitely get a gold medal for verbal gymnastics. As you know, I did not have to achieve sinless perfection; because, while I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me (Romans 5:8).

No Bob. And the fact you try to claim it is a red herring is evidence you can't honestly answer the question.

This is dishonest...I most certainly did answer the question.

The fact is that you too believe, teach, and preach a limited atonement. You even admit it in the next response.

Limited to human beings, yes... And, that is such absurd common sense that I have never had to teach or preach that. To understand, as you do, what I believe and then to ascribe a belief in limited atonement to me is, again, dishonest. Again, verbal gymnastics...they have no value in a debate.

You indicate you think the atonement has something to do with us.

It most certainly does have something to do with us. We are the recipients of His universal atonement.

You say the atonement has been applied to everybody.

No, sir. I say the atonement is sufficient for and available to every member of Adam's race.

The fact is that the atonement is only applied to believers.

The atonement is only applied by believers (Acts, 2:21, Romans 10:13, John 3:16,18)

Yes. God's Grace is efficacious. It always accomplishes exactly what He intended it to accomplish. And His Saving Grace will save everyone He intended it to save.

I agree. And, He intended it to save all who will believe and trust in the universal atonement provided in the sacrifice of His Son on Calvary.

 

[TCassidy]

I am not, and further more, there is nothing whatsoever in my response that would even imply such. But, you definitely get a gold medal for verbal gymnastics. As you know, I did not have to achieve sinless perfection; because, while I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me (Romans 5:8).

But you said you had perfect obedience just like the OT saints.

Here is what you said, "The same level of perfect obedience that was met by the Children of Israel when they applied the blood of the lamb to their doorposts. And, it was Hebrews 6:18 that forced God to save me, hallelujah! I met His condition and He kept His word!"

And you used Hebrews 6:18 to support your assertion. The problem is that the Jews being spoken of in that passage were "heirs of the promise." Not lost people! When you were lost you were the enemy of God. Not an heir of the promise made to Israel. So there is no possible way you met the condition.

This is dishonest...I most certainly did answer the question.

No, Bob, you didn't. And what you did was only quote a small part of what I said. I explained my response in the part you edited out. And you edited because you can't respond to it.

Limited to human beings, yes... And, that is such absurd common sense that I have never had to teach or preach that. To understand, as you do, what I believe and then to ascribe a belief in limited atonement to me is, again, dishonest. Again, verbal gymnastics...they have no value in a debate.

But not all humans. Only those who believe will be saved. Nothing dishonest about it. Just pointing out what you actually believe.

It most certainly does have something to do with us. We are the recipients of His universal atonement.

No. The Atonement is never offered to us. It is offered to the One Who was offended. It was offered to God and, like the blood on the door post in Egypt, placed there on behalf of the household.

The door post was not offered the Atonement. The door post did not accept or reject the blood. The door post had nothing to say about the matter.

The Atonement was not offered to us to accept or reject. It was offered to God. Unless you think God offended us and owes us an atoning sacrifice, which I suspect you don't believe.

No, sir. I say the atonement is sufficient for and available to every member of Adam's race.

How can it be when the door post, us, has nothing to say on the matter? And this is the problem with thinking the atonement is "available" to us. It has never been offered to us. Once we come to an in depth understanding of what the atonement is and to Whom it was offered, all this confusion goes away.

The atonement is only applied by believers (Acts, 2:21, Romans 10:13, John 3:16,18)

No. The Atonement is applied TO believers, the door posts, by the One Who received it, God.

He intended it to save all who will believe and trust in the universal atonement provided in the sacrifice of His Son on Calvary.

You are correct except for your inclusion of the word "universal." If it is universal, it saves everyone. If it does not save everyone, it is not universal. It is limited.

 

[prophecy70]

Where, then, do you stand on the 5 tenets of Calvinism?

I agree with all of them, I went into this with know prior knowledge of either side besides the tradition I was taught so when I read the bible I assumed free will and therefore read it into the bible, I never really thought about it. I actually got involved during a dispensational/covenant theology debate.

I listened to almost 20 debates read some books, and most importantly studied the bible and the passages presented in each debate.

I am not a greek scholar I haven't even mastered my own language , Tcass can you explain the word "Foreknowledge" to me... biblically used in the Greek.

The thing I've noticed is Calvinists are consistent, Arminians are not....they accuse Calvinists of picking out scripture to fit, and then respond with Matthew 23:37 1st Timothy 2:4 and 2nd peter 3:9 by doing the same thing!

Adrian Rogers says God looked down the corridors of time and knew who would choose... I can't grasp how that is not "learning" in one way or another.....

 

[rsr]

I can go along with Total Depravity; although, I would probably define it different than my Calvinist friends

I prefer Total Inability to turn to God without His intervention. Arminians believe the same.

say brothers but I'm not sure if they think I'm one of the elect or not ).

I don't have ontological certitude that I'm of the elect and have no idea about the status of any other person, so you're fine in my book.

I can also go along with Perseverance of the Saints under the same caveat.

This is, in fact, the point on which I have the most problems. Augustine believed that perseverance is a gift of God, yet he was not sure that all of the elect would be granted that gift.

Actually, I think TULIP, while useful in broad terms, overly simplifies soteriology and God's wonderful plans and sometimes leads to unedifying shouting matches.

 

[TCassidy]

Tcass can you explain the word "Foreknowledge" to me... biblically used in the Greek.

A fairly common error about predestination is caused by a misunderstanding of Romans 8:29. There we are told that God’s predestination is grounded in His foreknowledge.

This statement has been misunderstood to mean that God looked down the corridors of history, foresaw what you and I would do, and and adjusted His plan accordingly.

This view does not take into account the fact that God created time, and therefore all events in time, when He created the world, so that He does not look down through history but looks at history as a complete whole.

We must also understand that Romans 8:29 does not say that God foreknew certain decisions on our part. It doesn't even say that God foresees our faith, and because of our faith predestinates us. That's not what it says.

Romans 8:29 says that God foreknew certain people. When we study "knowledge" in the Bible we see that it involves a choice of close, intimate relations (when Adam “knew” his wife and she conceived).

Romans 8:29 means that God “fore-loved” certain people, and thus predestinated them. He chose them; they did not choose Him.

Romans 9 makes this clear. Paul discusses God’s sovereign choice of Jacob over Esau, a choice based on nothing either had done (Romans 9:11).

Paul’s answer to the question in verse 14, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?" is found in verse 15, where Paul tells us that God decides whom He will save and whom He will not, and for a bible believer, that should be the end of the debate.

For a more complete examination of this issue see
Ligonier Ministries