Leaving Calvinism?

[DaveXR650]

What did you hear him say that leads you to conclude that?

From his website:

"ARTICLE EIGHT: THE FREE WILL OF MAN
We affirm that God, as an expression of His sovereignty, endows each person with actual free will (the ability to choose between two options), which must be exercised in accepting or rejecting God’s gracious call to salvation by the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.

What confuses me about him is that he mentions "a gracious call to Salvation by the Holy Spirit" but when he says "through the Gospel" he means that there is no direct actual working of the Holy Spirit on the heart of a person who hears the gospel. If you get on the Soteriology101 website and plug in Holy Spirit in the search he has some articles that confirm this. Flowers does not leave any room for a direct action of the Holy Spirit in bringing someone to salvation. He specifically refutes the concept in his papers. I'm not saying he's wrong but that definitely puts him way outside of the views of most regular Baptists, Evangelicals, Wesleyans, and of course all types of Calvinists.

 

[37818]

What confuses me about him is that he mentions "a gracious call to Salvation by the Holy Spirit" but when he says "through the Gospel" he means that there is no direct actual working of the Holy Spirit on the heart of a person who hears the gospel. If you get on the Soteriology101 website and plug in Holy Spirit in the search he has some articles that confirm this. Flowers does not leave any room for a direct action of the Holy Spirit in bringing someone to salvation. He specifically refutes the concept in his papers. I'm not saying he's wrong but that definitely puts him way outside of the views of most regular Baptists, Evangelicals, Wesleyans, and of course all types of Calvinists.

Well, I come from the point of view sanctification precedes faith. The working of the Spirit by means of His word. John 17:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, . . . to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . . .

 

[Silverhair]

I don't know why free willers always bring this up. It is meaningless if the choice you made was your choice in the first place. That you could've chosen differently? But then that wouldn't have been your choice. .

Dave your logic here is so flawed that I can not believe you actually said what you did. Free will the ability to choose otherwise. The fact he chose something did not take away his ability to make that choice or to have made a different choice.

Yes, but much more. It is an attempt at actually pulling or moving your very will. And this is where I find the methodology of Flowers inadequate. I agree with the Arminians and Baptists that this type of grace can indeed be resisted, but it is way more than information. In addition, I believe, like the Arminians, Baptists, and Calvinists, that it is essential and the decisive thing when it is effective..

Again Dave your logic is flawed. Yes the conviction of the Holy Spirit is an attempt to pull or move your very will. God even when He does that it is only effective if the person being convicted agrees. The decisive factor could be the conviction of their sins or the wonder of God's creation. But as always it is still only effective if the person chooses to believe.
Even your last comment "it is essential and the decisive thing when it is effective" points to man's free will. Like it or not, free will is essential.

You missed my point. Their perception of what is true, their very belief, was determined by their inclination to their team loyalty. How much more does this play out when a man in his natural state is presented with the gospel? No. According to you we have a sovereign ability to carefully evaluate the situation and the only thing allowable is our self determined decision.

Dave you keep fighting against free will and then point to free will as required. Whether it is creation, Holy Spirit conviction, hearing the gospel it still comes down to the man has to choose. You can call it decisive and effectual but without the man's free will choice it does not happen.

What is the alternative Dave? God determines all that happens and sovereignly picks all those in heaven and those in hell. If there is not free will that is your only option. If you say man freely chooses to rebel then he also has the ability to choose to trust.


Of course not.

Sure. Those choices are real. But warnings like that are present from Genesis through the OT and every single time the fact that the Israelites were inclined to rebel and do evil is proven, by their own actions. And of course we're just like them except we don't have a book written about it. All I'm saying is that your will does not function like Flowers says it does. If you can't cease from sin because your eyes are full of adultery is it still your own fault? Of course. But you may not have the autonomous ability to fix that. That is all I am saying. Your "free will" is you freely acting according to your inclinations.

And again you point to man's free will. Do you always sin Dave? Do you always act according to your inclination. Or do you look at the situation and make a choice? Be honest with yourself Dave free will is the reality that we all experience.

Dave what you miss in those verses is the ability to make a real choice.

 

[Silverhair]

What confuses me about him is that he mentions "a gracious call to Salvation by the Holy Spirit" but when he says "through the Gospel" he means that there is no direct actual working of the Holy Spirit on the heart of a person who hears the gospel. If you get on the Soteriology101 website and plug in Holy Spirit in the search he has some articles that confirm this. Flowers does not leave any room for a direct action of the Holy Spirit in bringing someone to salvation. He specifically refutes the concept in his papers. I'm not saying he's wrong but that definitely puts him way outside of the views of most regular Baptists, Evangelicals, Wesleyans, and of course all types of Calvinists.

Did Flowers actually say the Spirit never has any direct action like conviction of sin etc? Just asking as I would be surprised if any Christian would deny the involvement of the Holy Spirit at some point in their lives.

 

[DaveXR650]

Did Flowers actually say the Spirit never has any direct action like conviction of sin etc? Just asking as I would be surprised if any Christian would deny the involvement of the Holy Spirit at some point in their lives.

I don't want to disparage the guy unfairly since he is currently a well known teacher but he does seem to. On his website he seems to say that the Holy Spirit is at work in that the scriptures you use are inspired, which is fine, but he specifically denies that the Holy Spirit must in some way truly work on a person in order for them to come to faith. This surprises and concerns me because it goes far beyond most teachers I am familiar with in this area. For instance here's G. Campbell Morgan. "No man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who first reveals Christ to the heart of man, so that man says, in response to the revelation: Thou art my Lord." Morgan was not a Calvinist but the idea that the Holy Spirit operates to bring about the salvation of men is prevalent, or so I thought. I know Wesley thought so. So did the founders of the Free Will Baptists. (At least Grantham).

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave what you miss in those verses is the ability to make a real choice.

Your choice is real. And it is yours. It's just that Flowers says in that video that our choices are made the same way God does. This is simply not true. We have a host of needs, desires, natural inclinations, experiences, memories, loyalties, alliances, personalities and so on. Yes, our decisions involve us truly evaluating and rationally deciding what to do but it is based on those things I mentioned. And as humans those things can be deeply flawed and limited.

How does this relate to salvation? When it comes to something like taking in enough food to live, God, through nature, has provided all the desires and abilities I need to do this as I have proven for almost 70 years. When it comes to working on my motorcycle, I have the God given ability to do this fairly well without divine intervention. But given my natural tendency and inclination to sin and spiritual blindness and stupidity, do I have the natural ability to read the Bible like I read a motorcycle shop manual, apply the lessons I need, and then decide on my own to come to Christ? I don't think so and I think Flowers does think so.

 

[DaveXR650]

Well, I come from the point of view sanctification precedes faith. The working of the Spirit by means of His word. John 17:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, . . . to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . . .

Yes. You don't have to be a Calvinist but those verses show to me at least more going on than a Provisionist method where God provides the means and framework for salvation and then leaves us to sink or swim based on our own free will.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't want to disparage the guy unfairly since he is currently a well known teacher but he does seem to. On his website he seems to say that the Holy Spirit is at work in that the scriptures you use are inspired, which is fine, but he specifically denies that the Holy Spirit must in some way truly work on a person in order for them to come to faith. This surprises and concerns me because it goes far beyond most teachers I am familiar with in this area. For instance here's G. Campbell Morgan. "No man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who first reveals Christ to the heart of man, so that man says, in response to the revelation: Thou art my Lord." Morgan was not a Calvinist but the idea that the Holy Spirit operates to bring about the salvation of men is prevalent, or so I thought. I know Wesley thought so. So did the founders of the Free Will Baptists. (At least Grantham).

You say Flowers specifically denies that the Holy Spirit must in some way truly work on a person in order for them to come to faith. Can you point me in the right direction for that. I have heard some things from him so from what I have heard, which is admittedly not a great deal, that does not sound like him.

But then again we know that the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world but I do not think it is only through Him that God will draw people to Himself. The bible tells us that man can know Him through His creation so could that be what Flowers is referring to?

When you look at Morgan's comment I agree but we know that the Holy Spirit indwells all those that trust in God so his comment re "No man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit." rings true. To limit the drawing to salvation to just the actions of the Holy Spirit is to limit God.

 

[Silverhair]

Your choice is real. And it is yours. It's just that Flowers says in that video that our choices are made the same way God does. This is simply not true. We have a host of needs, desires, natural inclinations, experiences, memories, loyalties, alliances, personalities and so on. Yes, our decisions involve us truly evaluating and rationally deciding what to do but it is based on those things I mentioned. And as humans those things can be deeply flawed and limited.

How does this relate to salvation? When it comes to something like taking in enough food to live, God, through nature, has provided all the desires and abilities I need to do this as I have proven for almost 70 years. When it comes to working on my motorcycle, I have the God given ability to do this fairly well without divine intervention. But given my natural tendency and inclination to sin and spiritual blindness and stupidity, do I have the natural ability to read the Bible like I read a motorcycle shop manual, apply the lessons I need, and then decide on my own to come to Christ? I don't think so and I think Flowers does think so.

Do you not think that God gave man the ability to understand the need and the means of coming to a saving relationship with God? Do you think reading a manual on engine repair is less demanding than reading the bible?

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

I could read this to a 13 year old child and they would understand what it said. Do you really think God would make it hard for people to trust in Him since He stated that He "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I am not saying that man does not have a host of things they have to evaluate in their lives. What I am saying is that man can and many do come to faith in Christ Jesus/God through various means that God has provided. To limit the means that God uses is to limit God. God is sovereign and I think it is best to let Him be sovereign by not trying to dictate how or whom He will save.

 

[DaveXR650]

You say Flowers specifically denies that the Holy Spirit must in some way truly work on a person in order for them to come to faith. Can you point me in the right direction for that. I have heard some things from him so from what I have heard, which is admittedly not a great deal, that does not sound like him.

The Work of the Spirit: Giving Credit Where Credit is Due
This is from his site but I can't tell if Flowers himself is talking. But the questions brought up are what I was referring to. They use an illustration a lot like what I used in that the question is do we have enough natural ability to take information about the gospel, and do with it what we need to do - like we would in other areas. Or, is there something about salvation and saving faith that requires more.

 

[DaveXR650]

Do you not think that God gave man the ability to understand the need and the means of coming to a saving relationship with God? Do you think reading a manual on engine repair is less demanding than reading the bible?

Yes. This is exactly the question. I tend to think that coming to a saving relationship with God is much more difficult than using my shop manual. Not because of technical difficulties (I agree that it is not a matter of IQ.) But in fact, many times our intelligence is one of the things that hinders us, along with the rest of our fallen nature. And that is what makes coming to Christ different than the many other things we truly can do with the various abilities God has already given us naturally.

Morgan has a lot to say on the work of the Holy Spirit but one of his recurring themes is that more than the fact that scripture is Holy Spirit inspired - he also had the Holy Spirit making the message real to us in direct action.

Do you really think God would make it hard for people to trust in Him since He stated that He "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

No. He never would. But it is hard for a rich man to enter, and few do find the narrow gate. There is obviously something wrong with us in our natural state. Throwing yourself on Christ's mercy after he has specifically invited you to come should be the easiest thing in the world yet, inexplicably, we often refuse. I don't get it either.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes. This is exactly the question. I tend to think that coming to a saving relationship with God is much more difficult than using my shop manual. Not because of technical difficulties (I agree that it is not a matter of IQ.) But in fact, many times our intelligence is one of the things that hinders us, along with the rest of our fallen nature. And that is what makes coming to Christ different than the many other things we truly can do with the various abilities God has already given us naturally.

Morgan has a lot to say on the work of the Holy Spirit but one of his recurring themes is that more than the fact that scripture is Holy Spirit inspired - he also had the Holy Spirit making the message real to us in direct action.

My question for you is why would you think God would work against His stated desire? If a child can understand enough to come to faith then do you think an adult would find it more of a challenge? God does not throw up obstacles to salvation does He? I agree that many think they are to smart to fall for the stories in the bible but surprisingly many very smart people do come to faith along with many not so smart people.
You mention human nature but under the determinism of calvinism God determines man's nature so again why would God work against His stated desire? Calvinism makes God seem very conflicted.

No. He never would. But it is hard for a rich man to enter, and few do find the narrow gate. There is obviously something wrong with us in our natural state. Throwing yourself on Christ's mercy after he has specifically invited you to come should be the easiest thing in the world yet, inexplicably, we often refuse. I don't get it either.

Again you miss the obvious answer, free will. Many rich men do not think they need help form anyone, I think you have two good examples of that running to lead your country. But you notice Christ did not say it was impossible for them to find the narrow gate. It is just a matter of them humbling themselves which is a matter of using their free will.

No matter what excuse you throw out there, no matter what means are used by God to draw people to Himself it still comes down to man and his free will. If he chooses to reject God or to trust in God it is by his free will the only other option is to say that the choice was determined by an outside force {God}. Is that what you are saying?

 

[DaveXR650]

No matter what excuse you throw out there, no matter what means are used by God to draw people to Himself it still comes down to man and his free will.

That is absolutely true. And it is also true that a conscious, rational response by us is all God requires of us. What goes on at a deeper level is not demanded by God that we understand. I am required to eat but I am not required to study nutrition. But if I do decide to study nutrition I would think it would be worth trying to get it right rather than oversimplifying and getting it wrong.

Part of the problem is that there are Calvinists who believe in such a meticulous, active Providential manipulation of all events that there is no place for any concept of free will. I don't accept that either. But I also don't accept your, and I guess Flowers, concept of free will as being as free from "influences" as you say.

The Bible is full of men proving a constant pattern of hearing God's will, promising to do it, and then failing to do it. To be honest, that isn't even right. Not failing to do it but choosing by their own free will to disobey. The problem is the will. So I just think that a theology like Calvinism, with all it's flaws, addresses this better than the free will Provisionist theology of Flowers.

 

[DaveXR650]

It is just a matter of them humbling themselves which is a matter of using their free will.

And there is the heart of the problem. If you think that this works the same way we freely do everything else in life you miss the whole concept. I seek food freely and choose what I want to eat truly - but it's based on a biological desire that is put in me. I seek a female companion and to gain her affections I settle down, get a job, even take a bath once in a while - because I am truly choosing to do those things but my desire for female companionship was not of my own choosing.

God approaches us and through various means let's us know his will. What I am saying is that unlike the above examples of hunger and desire for female companionship where we have properly functioning needs in full operation, in this case we have no natural desire to obey. God has chosen to delay punishment in most cases and we know from scripture revelation and from experience, personally and from history, that our tendency is not to obey him.

Now, I realize that there is within Calvinism a school of thought that reduces all this to a magic wand waved by God and we are thus born again. And there is scripture that backs that up. But more likely, what happens is that the Holy Spirit works to give us understanding of what scripture is saying, to make us see the value and beauty of the things of God in a way that we are not naturally capable of doing. I am leaning toward believing that we can still obstinately and defiantly mess this up but that is a whole 'nother discussion.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

no matter what means are used by God to draw people to Himself it still comes down to man and his free will.

When God draws someone Jn 12:32; Jn 6:44 that's the intervention of His Creative Power in the New Birth, so that person comes willingly being governed by a New Heart towards God.

 

[DaveXR650]

The bible tells us that man can know Him through His creation so could that be what Flowers is referring to?

That is sufficient to give man true guilt for not serving God. And it's worse for those like us who have written revelation that indeed was inspired by the Holy Spirit. But how do you best describe what actually happens if/when a person gets saved? Look at what Wesley said:
Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound by sin and nature's night,
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light.
My chains fell off, My heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

Looking at that. Does his description of salvation best fit with the Calvinistic theology or with it all centering on your free will? And Wesley wasn't even a Calvinist. There does not seem to be any "quickening ray" in Flowers Provisionism. If someone who follows him can correct me on this I would appreciate it.

 

[Silverhair]

That is absolutely true. And it is also true that a conscious, rational response by us is all God requires of us. What goes on at a deeper level is not demanded by God that we understand. I am required to eat but I am not required to study nutrition. But if I do decide to study nutrition I would think it would be worth trying to get it right rather than oversimplifying and getting it wrong.

Part of the problem is that there are Calvinists who believe in such a meticulous, active Providential manipulation of all events that there is no place for any concept of free will. I don't accept that either. But I also don't accept your, and I guess Flowers, concept of free will as being as free from "influences" as you say.

The Bible is full of men proving a constant pattern of hearing God's will, promising to do it, and then failing to do it. To be honest, that isn't even right. Not failing to do it but choosing by their own free will to disobey. The problem is the will. So I just think that a theology like Calvinism, with all it's flaws, addresses this better than the free will Provisionist theology of Flowers.

Dave how have you missed the many times I have said God draws people by various means: creation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the gospel etc. Do you not consider those as influences. But bottom line whatever the influence is man still has to make the decision to believe or not, to trust in God or not. God does not make that decision for them.

You say "The problem is the will." To a point I agree, it is the problem. Man for whatever reason will freely choose to ignore the God of creation so that he can have his own way. But you fail to acknowledge that the solution is also the will. Some of those that hear God do respond by trusting in Him for their salvation {Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9} but even those of us that do respond in faith still fail over and over.

There are only two possible ways to see this, man either has a free will, even as flawed as it is or he is just a puppet being controlled by God, which then would make Him responsible for everything that happens. The good as well as the bad.

Whether you look at the WCF, LBCF, TULIP/DoG it comes down to calvinism requires a deterministic God. The free will of calvinism is a pseudo free will. So while you think calvinism gives a better answer I do not see it as aligning with scripture.

It is God's creation and He has chosen to give man an actual free will.

 

[Silverhair]

And there is the heart of the problem. If you think that this works the same way we freely do everything else in life you miss the whole concept. I seek food freely and choose what I want to eat truly - but it's based on a biological desire that is put in me. I seek a female companion and to gain her affections I settle down, get a job, even take a bath once in a while - because I am truly choosing to do those things but my desire for female companionship was not of my own choosing.

God approaches us and through various means let's us know his will. What I am saying is that unlike the above examples of hunger and desire for female companionship where we have properly functioning needs in full operation, in this case we have no natural desire to obey. God has chosen to delay punishment in most cases and we know from scripture revelation and from experience, personally and from history, that our tendency is not to obey him.

Now, I realize that there is within Calvinism a school of thought that reduces all this to a magic wand waved by God and we are thus born again. And there is scripture that backs that up. But more likely, what happens is that the Holy Spirit works to give us understanding of what scripture is saying, to make us see the value and beauty of the things of God in a way that we are not naturally capable of doing. I am leaning toward believing that we can still obstinately and defiantly mess this up but that is a whole 'nother discussion.

But after all you have said it still comes down to the will of the person. If it is not a free will it is a controlled will. Either man makes the choice and is responsible or God makes the choice and He is responsible.

Adding influence, means or whatever word you want to use for how God draws people to Himself does not alter the fact it is either God or man that chooses as there is no other option.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair

When God draws someone Jn 12:32; Jn 6:44 that's the intervention of His Creative Power in the New Birth, so that person comes willingly being governed by a New Heart towards God.

@Brightfame52 you have misused the text again.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Not some as you want say.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The bible is clear that God draws all men and those that respond in faith will be saved. Free will clearly shown.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52 you have misused the text again.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Not some as you want say.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The bible is clear that God draws all men and those that respond in faith will be saved. Free will clearly shown.

Again the drawing in Jn 6:44 and Jn 12:32 is the effectual power of the Spirit in regeneration. They are brought to Faith in Christ, so anyone who dies in unbelief is excluded.