Leaving the Baptist Church

[saved by grace]

I have decided to leave the Baptist Church and look elsewhere. In all honesty I no longer believe that we are saved by faith alone or that we have an absolute assurance of salvation.
It bothers me that when Jesus was asked "what must I do to have eternal life" Jesus answered "keep the commandments". Why would he say that if we are saved by faith alone?

I believe that the apostles accepted Christ as their Savior yet Jesus told them in Matthew 6:15 "if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses". If we are saved by faith alone why would Jesus say that we must do a work of forgiveness or we will not be forgiven?

James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
Why would James, inspired by the Holy Spirit say "not by faith alone?"

If we have absolute assurance of salvation why would the Holy Spirit tell us in Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age, if they then fall away"

My pastor once told me that when I accepted Chirst I became a partaker of the Holy Spirit and I had eternal life. But the Christian here in Hebrews is told that he can fall away and not be restored to repentance.

I need to find something I can believe in.

 

[Tom Butler]

First, my brother, I commend you for your integrity. If you no longer believe in eternal security, you are no longer a Baptist. To retain the name and the affiliation would be dishonest.

I assume that you will also no longer post in the Baptist-only forums.

A small matter, but you cannot leave THE Baptist church, for there is no such animal.

Finally, I hope you will engage in further study of the scriptures on this question. I assure you that you are not the first, nor will you be the last, to wrestle with the scriptures you cited. But there are other clear, unequivocal scriptures which teach eternal security. One must not array one set of scriptures against the other, but interpret the more difficult passages in light of clear teaching elsewhere.

I pray God's blessings on you as you seek truth. And I pray that the Holy Spirit will give you clarity of mind and receptiveness of heart.

 

[Aaron]

You've either began a journey of frustration, doubt, and constant fear, or one of pride and self-righteousness. I hope it's the former, because your spirit can't bear the burden, and you will eventually be forced to cry out to the Lord for salvation. If it's the latter, abandon all hope. :tear:

 

[Emily25069]

I have decided to leave the Baptist Church and look elsewhere. In all honesty I no longer believe that we are saved by faith alone or that we have an absolute assurance of salvation.
It bothers me that when Jesus was asked "what must I do to have eternal life" Jesus answered "keep the commandments". Why would he say that if we are saved by faith alone?


Jesus says that Exactly because it is impossible to keep the commandments. He said that to show us our dependence on HIM. This is also what the whole sermon on the mount was for-to show us (and the full of good works pharisees) JUST how sinful we actually are and how we need to depend on grace. So you havent killed someone? Have you hated anyone? MURDER!

There is law, and there is gospel. The law only saves you if you can fulfill it 100%, but you cant. Only Jesus could, and that is where the gospel comes in..

*****

I believe that the apostles accepted Christ as their Savior yet Jesus told them in Matthew 6:15 "if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses". If we are saved by faith alone why would Jesus say that we must do a work of forgiveness or we will not be forgiven?


******

Interesting question. I have pondered this myself. Perhaps because forgiving others is a sign of repentence? There is no forgiveness from God without repentence. It kind of goes into the whole forgiving debts parable. Once you realize just how truly horrible you are, its hard to be unforgiving.

James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
Why would James, inspired by the Holy Spirit say "not by faith alone?"

*******

Because faith without works is dead. Very true statement. No baptist would disagree with James. However, I highly suggest you go through and read the book of Galations. The gospel shines clearly and brightly in this epistle and it covers a lot of your questions. Of course as christians we should try not to sin, but we will sin, so we need grace, and that is the only place that sinners like us can find salvation!!!

******

If we have absolute assurance of salvation why would the Holy Spirit tell us in Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age, if they then fall away"


I completely agree with you here. Not all baptists beleive in OSAS. I never did.

My pastor once told me that when I accepted Chirst I became a partaker of the Holy Spirit and I had eternal life. But the Christian here in Hebrews is told that he can fall away and not be restored to repentance.

I need to find something I can believe in.

Read history!

 

[Trotter]

It bothers me that when Jesus was asked "what must I do to have eternal life" Jesus answered "keep the commandments". Why would he say that if we are saved by faith alone?

Who was being spoken to, and why? Also, when did this happen? You lost the context and, therefore, what was actually being said. Christ had not yet died and risen, so how could anyone have faith in what not yet transpired?

I believe that the apostles accepted Christ as their Savior yet Jesus told them in Matthew 6:15 "if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses". If we are saved by faith alone why would Jesus say that we must do a work of forgiveness or we will not be forgiven?

Again, context. Someone who is a Christian is to forgive others. An unforgiving heart is a sign of unbelief. If you bother to read the Gospels you will see that the disciples were far from redeemed until after Christ's resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
Why would James, inspired by the Holy Spirit say "not by faith alone?"

Have you read the whole New Testament? Have you tried to find out who each book was written to, and the reasons for it? Have you bothered to look at the most basic things about all of this? True faith will be evident through works; faith is not a product of works. Faith that has no evidence is a matter of one's word alone, for if there is no proof (changed life, works of righteousness, etc) then odds are the person had an emotional experience but no true conversion.

If we have absolute assurance of salvation why would the Holy Spirit tell us in Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age, if they then fall away"

"For it is IMPOSSIBLE..." Impossible means that something cannot happen. Anyone who "falls away" was never there to begin with. Oh, it is very possible to walk away from God, but no one can remove themselves from His hand. I am guilty of turning my back on God once upon a time, but He never let me go. For God to let anyone go would be to make Himself a liar, as eternal life does not stop.

My pastor once told me that when I accepted Christ I became a partaker of the Holy Spirit and I had eternal life. But the Christian here in Hebrews is told that he can fall away and not be restored to repentance.

Your pastor is right. Again, do some research into who the intended audience of Hebrews actually was and the reasons behind the writing. A good Bible handbook would help you immensely with this, as would a New Testament survey or even a good study bible that has book introductions.

Just as the various Psalms were written to specific people and for specific purposes, so were many of the books of the New Testament. Not every church had fallen into debauchery like the Corinthian church, and Paul's letters to the Corinthians reflect this situation and how it should be dealt with. To look at the Corinthian letters and deduce that ALL New Testament churches had this problem would be crazy. Same thing with the letter to the Galatian church... they had fallen into legalism, but not every church had done the same thing as they had.

I need to find something I can believe in.

God doesn't serve up a smörgåsbord. His truth is still his truth. You might be wanting something that sounds better to you, but anything other than what the bible teaches is not of God. I wish you were in my area. I would love to get together with you and walk through the bible and answer your questions. My pastor would love to do the same thing.

I know some of my post sounds like I am being crass, but I really am not trying to be. From what you posted you sound very confused and have not had anyone willing or able to come alongside and be a paraclete to you. I am truly sorry for that, as I walked that same road after I came to the Lord. I eventually found some good teaching and teachers on Moody radio that helped me to find some answers, and then a pastor who made himself available to answer any questions I had, no matter how silly or off the wall. I also found some older, and much wiser, Christian men who were willing to invest in me. I pray that you find the same thing.

 

[Alive in Christ]

saved by grace...

I have decided to leave the Baptist Church and look elsewhere.

No problem there. Baptists are not the only christians.

In all honesty I no longer believe that we are saved by faith alone or that we have an absolute assurance of salvation.

Big problem there.

Those are two very foundational truths and they are indeed VERY true.

I pray that your search will be fruitfull.

 

[Deacon]

You'll have to change your posting name here too.

"Saved by .... ???"

Rob

 

[pinoybaptist]

I have decided to leave the Baptist Church and look elsewhere. In all honesty I no longer believe that we are saved by faith alone or that we have an absolute assurance of salvation.
It bothers me that when Jesus was asked "what must I do to have eternal life" Jesus answered "keep the commandments". Why would he say that if we are saved by faith alone?

I believe that the apostles accepted Christ as their Savior yet Jesus told them in Matthew 6:15 "if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses". If we are saved by faith alone why would Jesus say that we must do a work of forgiveness or we will not be forgiven?

James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
Why would James, inspired by the Holy Spirit say "not by faith alone?"

If we have absolute assurance of salvation why would the Holy Spirit tell us in Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age, if they then fall away"

My pastor once told me that when I accepted Chirst I became a partaker of the Holy Spirit and I had eternal life. But the Christian here in Hebrews is told that he can fall away and not be restored to repentance.

I need to find something I can believe in.

I got news for you.
You won't be the first to abandon faith.
The Hebrews addressed by the letter, particularly the verse you cited, were about to do the same thing at the time the letter was written.
Whether they did or not, nobody knows.
But they had at least an acceptable reason.
The intensity of the persecutions on many Christians of that age was just too much for them to bear, according to some historians.
This letter was written about 65 AD just about the time Nero burned Rome and then blamed the burning on Christians, not to mention that Christians were hated because the general population were taught they hated humanity.
They, at least, were thinking of going back to Judaism, with its rites and rituals, because of persecution.
You on the other hand, because of self.
Because you need something to believe in.
Jesus was not enough.
Go ahead.
Maybe you can try the Seventh Day Adventists.
Or the Roman Catholics.
Whichever way you go, if you are truly one of God's own, you will still be in heaven.
Because you know why ?
Your redemption was not hinged on what you believed in, or any choices you made.
God chose, God redeemed, and God will bring home.
Grace.
From start to finish.

 

[donnA]

It seems your posting name is incorrect, becasue you do not believe in saved by grace.
So where are you going to go, what kind of 'church'? Any christian church beleives in the bible, you have said you need soemthing to beleiv ein, christian churches teach the bible, therefore your looking for something not bible based, not christian.
I suggest you take Trotter's advice and study properly and you'll find the answers, the true and right answers. Context means everything, and when you ignore context you come up with all kinds of junk the bible never says.
If you have chosen not to be baptist anymore, you can not post in this forum.

 

[drfuss]

Saved by Grace writes:
" I have decided to leave the Baptist Church and look elsewhere. In all honesty I no longer believe that we are saved by faith alone or that we have an absolute assurance of salvation."

Congradulations for realizing that eternal security is a doctrine not supported by scripture. However, you are mistaken, as many Baptists are, that those who don't believe in eternal security do not have absolute assurance of salvation. Most who don't believe in eternal security believe they are saved by faith alone and have complete assurance of salvation.

The Classic Arminian Christians believe that a True Christian can forfeit their salvation by deciding to stop trusting in Christ. So as long as they don't decide to stop trusting Christ as their Savior, their salvation is conpletely assured. On the other hand, most eternal security Christians believe a "Christian" who stops trusting Christ was not a True Christian in the first place. Like the classic arminians, eternal security Christians believe by faith that they are saved. The difference is primarily definitions and a play on words.


The Wesleyan Arminians believe that a Christian is in danger of losing their salvation while still believing, by continually resisting the Holy Spirit conviction of sins and refusing to confess and repent for those known sins. Wesleyan Arminians believe that as long as you don't resist the Holy Spirit over a long period of time, their salvation is assured.

The Catholic Church believes that you must have some works to go with your faith to be saved. It is the Catholics who may be unsure of their salvation even if they follow their beliefs.

 

[Revmitchell]

............................................................................

 

[saved by grace]

I completely agree with you here. Not all baptists beleive in OSAS. I never did.
Read history!

I have read history and that is what is giving me doubts. Why did Luther want to remove the book of James from the bible? Why did Luther add the word "alone to his German translation?
Romans 3:28 So halten wir nun dafür, daß der Mensch gerecht werde ohne des Gesetzes Werke, allein durch den Glauben.

Adding to the word of God is wrong.
You said that not all Baptists believe in OSAS. I see that as a problem. How can one pastor believe it and another not believe it. What is truth? What interpretation is the truth?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Saved by GRace,

You seem to have more issues that just being part of a Baptist church. It sounds like you have been told what to believe rather than investigating it for yourself.

My suggestion for you would be to get a Bible and read what it says. Start in the New Testament and begin to read the words of Jesus. Get on your knees and ask God to reveal what His Word is teaching. Forget the commentators and the arguments. Nail down for yourself that the Bible is God's inerrant Word and determine to believe what the Holy Spirit guides you it teaches.

 

[saved by grace]

=Trotter;1522426]Who was being spoken to, and why? Also, when did this happen? You lost the context and, therefore, what was actually being said. Christ had not yet died and risen, so how could anyone have faith in what not yet transpired?

Why does it matter that Christ had not risen yet? Are you saying that keeping the commandments is not a sign that we have saving faith?
Paul said this after Christ rose" For neither circumcision counts for anything not uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Again, context. Someone who is a Christian is to forgive others. An unforgiving heart is a sign of unbelief

. Then how are we saved by faith alone if we have to forgive? Forgiving is a work.

Have you read the whole New Testament? Have you tried to find out who each book was written to, and the reasons for it? Have you bothered to look at the most basic things about all of this? True faith will be evident through works;

I agree. Keeping the commandments is evidence of our faith. Those are works. Isn't James saying "we are justified by keeping the commandments not by faith alone?"

faith is not a product of works. Faith that has no evidence is a matter of one's word alone, for if there is no proof (changed life, works of righteousness, etc) then odds are the person had an emotional experience but no true conversion.

True. But if God is giving us the grace to do good works then we must do them. If we are not keeping the commandments then aren't we rejectiong His grace. I think this is what Paul means when he sayd "Remain in God's grace or you too will be cut off" Romans 11:22. I no longer have confidence in the Baptist interpretation of faith and works.

"For it is IMPOSSIBLE..." Impossible means that something cannot happen. Anyone who "falls away" was never there to begin with

.
I disagree. You can't fall away from something you were never a part of. Why does it say that they were "partakers of the Holy Spirit" if they never believed?

Oh, it is very possible to walk away from God, but no one can remove themselves from His hand. I am guilty of turning my back on God once upon a time, but He never let me go. For God to let anyone go would be to make Himself a liar, as eternal life does not stop.

God will always remain faithful. Do you believe that we have free will? We can freely turn away

God doesn't serve up a smörgåsbord. His truth is still his truth

. But what is truth? The Baptists disagree with the Reformed Baptists who disagree with the Lutherans who disagree with the Church of Christ who disagree with.....and on and on.

You might be wanting something that sounds better to you, but anything other than what the bible teaches is not of God.

Every Church says that they have the true teachings

I know some of my post sounds like I am being crass, but I really am not trying to be

.

I appreciate your comments. I am only looking for answers.

 

[saved by grace]

=donnA;1522483]It seems your posting name is incorrect, becasue you do not believe in saved by grace.

I Do believe that I am saved by God's grace. I cannot save myself with God.s saving grace. However as I read scripture I see too many pasages that say we can loose our salvation by rejecting God's grace.

So where are you going to go, what kind of 'church'? Any christian church beleives in the bible

,
But they all believe in different ways that we obtain eternal life. I have been told that I cannot lose my salvation but what if I can? That means I am deceiving myself.
What if water Baptism is necessary and not just an ordinance? Why did Luther believe in water Baptism as necessary for salvation but we don't? What if he was right? The Methodists, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans all baptise infants. What if they are right?

 

[Amy.G]

What if water Baptism is necessary and not just an ordinance? Why did Luther believe in water Baptism as necessary for salvation but we don't? What if he was right? The Methodists, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans all baptise infants. What if they are right?

Because Luther was Catholic.


Your only hope is to study the scriptures and quit listening to Luther or other people. What does the bible say? How is one saved? Do infants have faith? What good does it do to baptize an infant that has no faith? Was the thief on the cross baptized? What does the water represent under the New Covenant as opposed to the Old Covenant?


Based on your posts, I don't think your problem is with the Baptist Church, but church period. It seems you are having trouble believing what God has said and are instead turning to humans for your theology. Very dangerous.

 

[JMSR]

What if water Baptism is necessary and not just an ordinance? Why did Luther believe in water Baptism as necessary for salvation but we don't? What if he was right? The Methodists, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans all baptise infants. What if they are right?

Don't forget Acts 10, where the group was obviously saved prior to baptism.

 

[saved by grace]

Saved by GRace,

You seem to have more issues that just being part of a Baptist church. It sounds like you have been told what to believe rather than investigating it for yourself.

My suggestion for you would be to get a Bible and read what it says. Start in the New Testament and begin to read the words of Jesus. Get on your knees and ask God to reveal what His Word is teaching. Forget the commentators and the arguments. Nail down for yourself that the Bible is God's inerrant Word and determine to believe what the Holy Spirit guides you it teaches.

Would you or someone tell me why James, guided by the Holy Spirit, says that we are "justified by works and not by Faith alone?"

Why does Paul say that we must "remain in God's kindness or we too will be cut off?"

Why does Paul say that it is the 'Not the hearers of the law who are righteous bu the doers of the law who will be justified/" Rom. 2:13

WHy does Paul say that "obedience leads to righteousness?" Rom 6:6

I have asked by Pastor and he can't give me an answer. I would like for someone here to take these verses and explain what they mean. One day I suddenly began seeing them in a completley different light. I have to believe that the Holy Spirit is calling me out of the Baptist Church. WHere He wants me do go, I do not know.

 

[saved by grace]

Don't forget Acts 10, where the group was obviously saved prior to baptism.

I have looked at Acts 10 and it caused me problems. If Baptism is not necessary why does Peter say in Acts 10:47 "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.? And he commanded them to be baptized"

 

[Amy.G]

I have looked at Acts 10 and it caused me problems. If Baptism is not necessary why does Peter say in Acts 10:47 "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.? And he commanded them to be baptized"

NT baptism is an outward sign of of inward transformation. In this verse, they had already received the Holy Spirit before they were told to be baptized, proving that they were saved apart from baptism.