Leaving the Baptist Church

[paul wassona]

What are CoG's and apostolics doing posting in a Baptist only forum? They give credit to the devil and come in here disguised as baptist then they underhandedly start threads playing on the sympathetic and spread their false doctrine. "SBG" and HAMel both have brought into question baptist distinctives and are obviously not baptists. They're using this as a platform and you all play right into it. Two indentifying marks of a cult is to add works to grace that saves and the other is to say man cannot understand the bible. Mr. Moderator, may we ask these fellows to be welcomed into their appropiate forums?

 

[annsni]

Nowhere does this scripture say that they "were saved" apart from baptism. They received the Holy Spirit and then Peter commanded that they be baptized by water. We see the same thing happen in Acts 19 where Paul found some disciples that had only been water baptized in John's baptism. Paul then laid his hands upon them and they received the Holy Spirit to complete the baptism. It is always water and Spirit. Not water alone or Spirit alone.
This is why I have come to believe that water baptism is more than just an outward sign. With water baptism our sins are forgiven and we receive the free gift of the Holy Spirit.

How do those who are unsaved have the Holy Spirit. You are saying that we need to be baptized THEN we receive the Holy Spirit but in the Acts 10 passage, they had received the Holy Spirit BEFORE baptism.

 

[annsni]

I have to say that I'm reading through James right now and while James 2 SEEMS like it might say that works save us, when we read the passage I find it so clear. Yes, works are important - they are the sign of life in us. If we do not do works, then what kind of faith do we have? Do we really have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ who died a horrific death so that we might have life or do we have "faith" in the concept of Jesus and His goodness and all is hunky dory? In light of the cross, my whole life changed and my works absolutely changed too. Just like breathing is a sign of life, works is a sign of life. Abraham, while he had faith and it is said "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness", it was the works that bore out the proof of that faith. It was not the works that saved him - but the works showed his faith and was a proof of that faith in God. If Abraham had "faith" but didn't do anything to obey God, would he really have had faith?

When we see the whole of Scripture, we see so clearly that it is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that saves us from our sins. If it were works, then we would have salvation, not have salvation, have salvation, not have salvation and be like a kid playing with the waves at the beach. But instead it is a one time thing - an instant - that we become saved. From that salvation, we show over and over again the evidence of that new life in the works that we do. We do need to work at it because it doesn't always come naturally thanks to our sinful selves and such but if we are truly a child of God, we will have a heart that desires to please our Father. THAT is the proof in the pudding.

 

[go2church]

First, my brother, I commend you for your integrity. If you no longer believe in eternal security, you are no longer a Baptist. To retain the name and the affiliation would be dishonest.

I assume that you will also no longer post in the Baptist-only forums.

A small matter, but you cannot leave THE Baptist church, for there is no such animal.

Finally, I hope you will engage in further study of the scriptures on this question. I assure you that you are not the first, nor will you be the last, to wrestle with the scriptures you cited. But there are other clear, unequivocal scriptures which teach eternal security. One must not array one set of scriptures against the other, but interpret the more difficult passages in light of clear teaching elsewhere.

I pray God's blessings on you as you seek truth. And I pray that the Holy Spirit will give you clarity of mind and receptiveness of heart.

There are lots of Baptists who do not believe in eternal security, Free Will and General Baptists. Perhaps the Original Poster should check out a few of those, they may be able to provide answers you are looking for.

I would also say that in our journey with Christ, until we are with Him where he is, there will always be an element of mystery. The Bible doesn't tell us everything we want to know, but it does tell us what we need to know so we can be saved.

 

[saved by grace]

=Marcia;1522969]Justified does not always refer to salvation. In the James passage it is talking about our works reveal the faith. If you read the whole book, it states clearly that we are saved by faith and not works

.
WHen did I say we can be saved by works?? What I am seeing is that faith and works go together. They cannot be separated. Not faith alone, not works alone but faith and works together

You do not give a citation for the 2nd quote.

Romans 11:22

Rom. 2 is Paul building up his argument that leads to the statement that no one is a doer of the law. It's like me saying, "The person who never makes a mistake will be admired." Well, yes, but there is no such person.

That 's not what it says. " it is the doers of the law that will be justified".He is talking about the moral law. Verse 2:21 " while you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?" Clearly Paul wants them to be doers of the moral law not just hearers.

The last one is Rom. 6:16 (not rom 6:6). Here is the context:

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

If you read that over and read the chapter through, and check some commentaries, you can figure it out. Have you checked into any commentaries? Have you read the contexts of these passages? Pulling out verses by themselves is not reading the Bible and cannot be understood that way.

I think that you miss the context. Verse 15 "Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!" Paul is speaking to Jewish Christians that wanted to hold on to Jewish understanding of salvation by the works of the Mosaic Law. Paul says we are saved by grace. Does this mean they now sin?? "by no means!" Verse16 " you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness"
Here again scripture tells us it is not faith alone but obedience to God that leads to righteousness. Obedience is a work that is necessary to attain eternal life. Not obedience alone but with faith.
We are saved by grace but we can lose that grace through disobedience to God and we can lose our salvation. I know that is not the Baptist understanding but this is why I am leaving

 

[saved by grace]

Anyway, you really don't think the unsaved received the Holy Spirit do you?

Cornelius was a pagan. God accepted His prayers Acts 10:4 "what is it Lord? "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God"

The Holy Spirit was sent to Cornelius as a sign to Peter that the pagans could also be in the kingdom of God.

 

[Revmitchell]

Cornelius was a pagan. God accepted His prayers Acts 10:4 "what is it Lord? "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God"

The Holy Spirit was sent to Cornelius as a sign to Peter that the pagans could also be in the kingdom of God.

Have you left yet?

 

[saved by grace]

I deal with enough "willful ignorance" already without having to wade through this. If you want someone to get level with you I can do it, but you have yet to show that you want any actual answers. You don't have a clue about context, about grace, about baptism, about much of anything. The more you post the more all of this becomes evident and the more you refuse to even consider that your view of scripture could be wrong.

Trotter. I used to believe just like you. Have you considered that maybe you could be wrong?? There are too many scriptures that say we can lose our salvation and that faith and works go together. You cannot separate them.

 

[Revmitchell]

Trotter. I used to believe just like you. Have you considered that maybe you could be wrong?? There are too many scriptures that say we can lose our salvation and that faith and works go together. You cannot separate them.

Have you left yet?

 

[donnA]

saved by grace,, you are posting in the wrong forum, you are not baptist, by your own admission, and this is a baptist only forum, why do you flaunt the rules like this, if works is added to salvation, your works here are not good for you.

 

[saved by grace]

=pocadots1990;1523077]Saved by Grace: This is the first time I have read your OP and my heart aches for you. The issue in James 2 about faith without works is dead being alone. This is talking about showing your faith by your works. Works don't save anyone (Ephesians 2:8-10), but works show your faith in Christ to other people.

James 2:26. : “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

I hear what you are saying but I don't think that works are just for others to see. These works come from God. He gives us the grace to do them and we must do them. It is not an option. Good works are done for God not for men. How can we have eternal life with a dead faith?

I too have struggled about eternal security and was confronted with this issue when a man I went to Bible College with committed suicide. The Dean of Students encouraged us to search the scriptures for ourselves to figure out about eternal security. He was talking to me because I was never taught about that in church. Half the church believed in eternal and the other half did not and it was not taught in the church

. This begs the question, what is truth? This is what I am struggling with. The Holy Spirt was supposed to guide us into all truth not some truth. Yet every church is different.

After searching the scriptures, I do believe in eternal security

. I used to, now I don't. Eternal security and free will do not go together.

But that does NOT give us a license to sin because God will take us to the wood shed (discipline). He does this because He loves us.

I think it is not to the wood shed but to hell. WE have free will to accept or reject God's grace. When we sin we reject His Grace. My pastor never told me that there are different levels of sin. He said all are equal yet John tells us that some sins are deadly and some are not. Some lead to hell some do not. 1 John 5:16-17

These scriptures give me trouble regarding eternal security. How else can they be interpreted?

Matt. 7:19–23 “,Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

DId Paul have eternal security?
1 Cor 9:26–27, “Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.”

How could Paul be “disqualified” from the race if he has already won the prize? If he had eternal security?

Hebrews 12:26–27, “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries

 

[donnA]

No, I am starting to believe that works, given to us by God, need to be done to "remain in His kindness' or we will be cut off. I just can't say to myself that I can gain eternal life without keeping the commandments.

this si not grace, therefore your name here, 'saved by grace' is a lie. apparently as far as your concerned Jesus sacrifice is menaingless, you need to 'help' Him by acheving your own salvation through works.
again, your on the wrong forum and are a troll

 

[saved by grace]

How do those who are unsaved have the Holy Spirit. You are saying that we need to be baptized THEN we receive the Holy Spirit but in the Acts 10 passage, they had received the Holy Spirit BEFORE baptism.

The Holy Spirit comng upon the pagans was simply a sign given to Peter that non-Jews could come into the Kingdom. Acts 15:8 clearly tells us this
"And God who know the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith...but we believe that we shall be saved throufh the grace of the LOrd Jesus, just as they will""

Notice it doesn't say they are saved but they "shall be". Again here is another scripture that says there is no assurance of salvation.

 

[donnA]

still in the wrong forum I see, rules are not for you are they, yet you claim salvation is by following the rules, and you don't seem to want to follow rules, your in big trouble then aren't you.

 

[Amy.G]

I need to find something I can believe in.

It appears that you already have and have come on this board to teach the rest of us.

Leaving the Baptist church was probably a good idea.

 

[saved by grace]

this si not grace, therefore your name here, 'saved by grace' is a lie. apparently as far as your concerned Jesus sacrifice is menaingless, you need to 'help' Him by acheving your own salvation through works.again, your on the wrong forum and are a troll

Unbelivable....I am struggling with what I have always believed and accused of being a troll.

Yes,yes, yes.. We are saved by grace. But that doesn't mean we remain in grace. Sin separates us from God. Deadly sins as John says in 1 John 5.

Works alone can't save us but when they are given to us by God we must obey and respond to His saving grace. When we sin we are rejecting His grace and if we sin enough we will no inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[donnA]

you admit not being a baptist, your beleifs are not baptist, you are in the wrong forum.

ever read, where sin is grace does much more abound? hum?
does not give liberty to willfully sin and keep sinning all a person wants, but it does tell us we can not out sin God's grace, the bible teaches completely different then you've been posting. It's scripture and God your complaining about, becasaue it does not suit you, as if God has too.
Your in the wrong forum.

 

[go2church]

Forget the discussion, protect the forum, by all means keep it pure!?! Please

 

[Tom Bryant]

Your posts belie the idea that you are struggling. Your first post seemed to be the post of someone who was seriously asking questions. Your current posts continue to tell us that you have changed your beliefs and are seeking to argue.

So, to quote a famous poster: :thumbs:

Have you left yet?

 

[saved by grace]

=annsni;1523088]I have to say that I'm reading through James right now and while James 2 SEEMS like it might say that works save us

,
No where does it say works save us. It is works along with faith. Not faith alone, not works alone, works and faith. You cannot separate them

when we read the passage I find it so clear. Yes, works are important - they are the sign of life in us. If we do not do works, then what kind of faith do we have?

Exactly. Without works we have a dead faith. How can we enter heaven with a dead faith? Can we enter eternal life if we sin against His commandments? No, because that means we had a dead faith. Therefore we must do those works to have a saving faith. So works are necessary. Not works alone but works with faith.

Abraham, while he had faith and it is said "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness", it was the works that bore out the proof of that faith. It was not the works that saved him - but the works showed his faith and was a proof of that faith in God. If Abraham had "faith" but didn't do anything to obey God, would he really have had faith?

Was he righteous just because he believed or was it because he believed and he obeyed God?? THis again is faith and works together. Both are necessary. That is why James says we are not justified by faith alone.. Works have a part in sanctification.

When we see the whole of Scripture, we see so clearly that it is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that saves us from our sins.

Yes

If it were works, then we would have salvation, not have salvation, have salvation, not have salvation and be like a kid playing with the waves at the beach.

This is why I think Jesus and the apostles say we must "endure to the end". We can be saved if we remain in God's grace. If we sin we must confess our sins (a work) and we must repent (a work). Yes, I have come to believe that we can fall, confess and repent, and be grafted back into His grace. Eternal security denies our free will.

But instead it is a one time thing - an instant - that we become saved

. WHen we accept God's grace we become saved but that doesn't mean the we remain saved. Again, we have free will to reject God's grace.

From that salvation, we show over and over again the evidence of that new life in the works that we do. We do need to work at it because it doesn't always come naturally thanks to our sinful selves and such but if we are truly a child of God, we will have a heart that desires to please our Father. THAT is the proof in the pudding.

WE have a sinful nature. We need God's grace to receive eternal life. But we must remain in Christ to have eternal life

John 14:15
If you love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21
He that has my commandments and keeps them; he it is that loves me. And he that loves me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.

1 John 2:3
And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 5:2
In this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 " he who says "I know him but disobeys his commandments is a liar"