Left behind

Double post

 

don't worry so much, Benjamin. Pre-trib belief would not lead anyone to follow a false christ. In fact, it would lead us to do the opposite......

 

I agree with you in spite of the way my comments have been missunderstood. What this means to me is that of course there will be a rapture but of everyone after Christ's second coming to appear before His Judgement seat.

[ October 31, 2005, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: StraightAndNarrow ]

 

Good afternoon!

I understand why, the word, 'Left Behind' is a popular for pretribulation rapture. Also, it is popular because of Tim LaHaye wrote series novel books of "Left Behind".

Word, 'left behind' is quote from Matthew 24:40,41.

Pretrib's intepreting of 'left behind' means person will be left behind on earth while miss rapture, will go through tribulation.

The context of Matt. 24:39-42 talking about unexpecting thief at Lord's coming for the judgment. Verse 40 and 41 speak of two persons in the same place, to my understanding of two persons are respresent believer and unbeliever. "The one shall be taken"- in pretrib's intepreting, it speaks of believer shall be caught up or rapture. Oh really? That is twisting or opposite as what Christ actual saying.

First, Christ warns us, He shall come like as "thief in the night" according 1 Thess. 5:2. Thief in the night is speak of catch person who is not awaken up, and remain in darkness and sin, will be caught up by the angels, for the purpose, is to bring unjust to face before the throne of Christ(Matt. 25:31-46 & 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

Apostle Paul tells us, that we do NOT be in darkness, sleep, we must be awake up and watch be ready, because Christ shall come like as 'thief in the night' - 1 Thess. 5:3-7.

'Thief in the night' is NOT for saved people, it is for unjust people, who are in darkness, sleep, and not watch for Christ's coming.

1 Thess. 5:8 tells us, we must be alert of our salvation with helmet, and be sober.

1 Thess. 5:9 tells us, we are not appointed for the wrath, because we received salvation through Jesus Christ.

Wrath of God is for send people into everlasting fire, because of not watch, remain in darkness, remain sleep. Means any person who is not repent of sins, and still sinning in the dark, will be caught up by the angels, and shall bring person to face before the throne of Christ, then shall be cast into everlasting fire at Christ's coming.

Bible commands us, that we ought always be watch and ready, do not walk in the dark, because we all shall face before the judgement seat of Christ at His coming. And we shall NOT be caught as thief.

'person shall be left'- is the picture of faithful servant who are watch, ready, and walk in the light.

Matt. 24:39 tells us, when the flood came and TOOK them away is the picture of the thief. Person, which is left is the picture of 8 people saved in the Ark are left remain on earth.

These faithful servants who shall be left on earth at Christ's coming shall inherit everlasting life with Christ, and shall live on a new earth with the Lord.

Of course, we as servants shall be gathering together at Christ's coming, so we all shall meet Christ in the air.

Matt. 25:31-46 does not saying Christ shall judge world in Jerusalem on earth. It must be somewhere up in the air.

What about Zechariah 14:4? Most Christians intepret this verse into literally, that Christ's feet shall touch upon Mt. Olivet at his coming. Interesting, I read at amill board, it gives a point of Zechariah 14 talking about Calvary, that the Calvary already spearated and judged. Later this week, I will discuss more on Zechariah chapter 14. But my post is already off the track.

My point is 'thief in the night' is talk about the warning to us, IF we do not watch and ready, remain in darkness, we shall be caught with unexpecting, and shall bring us of shameful, and judged, also we might be cast away into the everlasting fire, IF we do not be watch and ready for His coming!

Again, 'left behind' does not prove pretribulationism doctrine. 'Left behind' shows very clear that it will be happened follow AT Lord's coming same time is posttribulational because of its context with Matt. 24:29-31.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

It really doesn't matter if one is pre-, mid-, or post-trib.....not in the end it doesn't.

IF a pre-trib rapture were true it in no way relies on whether or not the Christian is actively looking for it. The same with the other two viewpoints.

It really amuses me that so many get so worked up over this issue. If God chooses to rapture His people pre-trib than we will all go at that time, and it doesn't matter which view we held on earth.

If God chooses a mid-trib, than we'll pretty much figure that out when the anti-christ appears and we are all still here.

If God chooses post-trib than by all means, all of us will most certainly know what's happening and will realize that the other two viewpoints were wrong. However, with all the Tribulation going on, I don't think any of us will care much at that point.

No matter what, if you are saved you are saved. Your viewpoint on when and if there is a rapture has no bearing on your salvation.

 

Like all people, you're free to believe anything you "LIKE",

but there's only ONE BIBLE, ONE TEACHER, (Comforter) and ONE TRUTH.

Becoming "dogmatic" before you understand it, isn't "wise", for "ANYONE".

"Humble as a child" is the only way the "TEACHER" will teach. </font>[/QUOTE]I suppose you're free to believe anything yourself. I have taught a Sunday School course on Daniel and Revelation and have thought a great deal about this. Upon what do you claim that I'm believing something I "LIKE." I believe what for me is the gospel truth. By the way, I believe it's extremely dogmatic to immediately attack my position without clarification or discussion.

 

My understanding is that the whole doctrine of the Rapture (separate from Christ's Second Coming) is based on 3 short passages in the Bible.

1) 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2) 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

3) Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mat 24:41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


There's nothing that's compelling about these verses to assume that they couldn't be refering to Christ's Second Coming.

The 1 Th verses say the dead in Christ shall rise followed by Christians which are alive. In my view those who are dead or alive and don't know Him would follow. After all, we all have to be at the Judgement described in Ma 25: 31-46 and Rev 20: 11-15. The 1 Cor passage talks about what's going to happen at the last trump. Is the last trump going to occur one thousand years before Christ's "Second Coming?" That doesn't make sense to me. As far as the Mat 24 passage is concerned, the real meaning is clarified by looking at some verses earlier in that same chapter.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

For the elect's sake the tribulation will be shortened. But you're saying that the elect have already been raptured to be with God??? A contradiction.

I said that I believe that Christ will return ONCE. But 1 Th 4: 16 says "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout." That's one! Then He returns again to rule the earth during the Millenium. That's TWO. Then He returns for the true Second Coming! That's THREE!

I don't believe that there are going to be 3 or 4 judgements, either. That creates a problem for people who believe that we can become a Christian and then live like the devil. Mat 25: 31-46 and Rev 20: 11-15 both describe the Judgement.

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works their works.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

The real question is going to be "What did you do with this man called Jesus?" Not what did you know about Him or even what did you believe about Him but how did He change your life and how did your life have an impact on your neighbor. I don't call this works. I call it living the Christian life.

 

Like all people, you're free to believe anything you "LIKE",

but there's only ONE BIBLE, ONE TEACHER, (Comforter) and ONE TRUTH.

Becoming "dogmatic" before you understand it, isn't "wise", for "ANYONE".

"Humble as a child" is the only way the "TEACHER" will teach. </font>[/QUOTE]I suppose you're free to believe anything yourself. I have taught a Sunday School course on Daniel and Revelation and have thought a great deal about this. Upon what do you claim that I'm believing something I "LIKE." I believe what for me is the gospel truth. By the way, I believe it's extremely dogmatic to immediately attack my position without clarification or discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]I have, but evidently, time spend posting "Opinions" is more important than time spend "Studying/learning".

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html

 

Straight And Narrow,

Again, pre-trib does not believe in 3 or 4 comings of Christ.

The rapture is not considered a "coming of Christ" since we meet Him in the air and He never comes to earth at that point.

The Millenium happens AFTER the Great Tribulation and all, which means His Second Coming has already occurred, there is no need for a "third" coming.

I understand if you don't agree, of course, but I think the point of this thread is becoming obscured.

My impression was that the question was from a pre-trib point of view, and was simply about who we believed would be on earth as witnesses.

Like Ive said, many pre-tribbers believe that there will be people who are saved during the Tribulation which, Straight and Narrow, also answers one of your supposed contradictions. If there are people saved during the Trib, than there WILL be elect on earth at that time, so God will have a "reason" to "shorten the last days." No contradiction.

 

Anything but looking forward to the second coming of Christ is false. If we were to go through any of the tribulation, we would be looking toward the revealing of the antichrist, not THE Christ.

 

I am looking forward to being home with my family for supper tonight. That does not mean it is "false" to expect a 30 minute drive of rush-hour traffic first, or that I'm even "looking toward" the drive.

 

Continue to look for the revealing of anitchrist. I will not be here when he is made known.

 

Neither will I. I'll likely have been dead for many generations.

 

2 Thess 2:3-4 telling us, do not be deceived of any teachings about the timing of coming, saying, 'day of Christ is already past'. Paul said, day shall NOT come, till come a falling away FIRST and the revealed of the man of sin, and he shall sitteth the temple of God. That means, our gathering together(2 Thess. 2:1) and day of Christ(2 Thess. 2:2) shall NOT come till we must first see apostasy, and face false Messiah, and he shall persecute against the temple ofGod(church).

I do LOOKING for the coming of Christ - 1 Cor. 1:7, Titus 2:13, and more.... both posttribs and pretribs are looking for Christ coming, both are no difference. Pretribs prefer rapture first, not want to face Antichrist or persecution. Where is their faith? We should be strong stand and be brave like as soldier of Christ.

Bible telling us very clear, there shall be the only one future coming at the end of the age. No way you can find two comings in the Bible, because there is none passage find anywhere in Bible gives a hint of two comings.

Early Christians were eager looking forward for the coming. None of them hear 'pretribulation rapture'. Because it was not yet exist doctrine. There was fact, that they believed only one coming, because of what the Bible saying so. So, please stop accuse at posttribs, saying that postribs look for Antichrist, than Christ. That is not true. We as posttribs are eager looking forward for coming of Christ just like as pretribs do.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

ummm, I don't recall anyone claiming that post-tribbers are looking for an anti-christ. But it is true that if POST-trib is correct than the NEXT event we would witness is the revealing of the ANTI-christ. That is not a claim that you post-tribbers are FOR the anti-christ....Im sure we would all agree that you would NOT be.

And why is it that we can keep saying until we are blue in the keyboard that we do NOT believe in TWO comings of Christ....but ya'all just don't hear it?

Oh well.....

 

It's cause they don't WANT to hear it, bapmom. Otherwise, it would through them out of their rut & make them realize they are wrong...

 

Ahhh!

 

The way I watch for the Anti-Christ is by the falling away first, that’s how I’m going to know the time is near by watching a bunch of scared pretribbers that thought they weren’t suppose to be here start sprouting wings and go flying off after being seduced by him, probably thinking they musta missed they boat. But don’t worry I’m going to start making lassos if I'm still here and rope as many as I can and clip their wings.

 

Cause it is easier to
defeat strawmen in debates than real persons

Clean1: //When the Great Tribulation starts isn't there gonna
be some amount of Christians
left behind to witness to those who have never of the saving grace
of Jesus Christ?//

No.

There is no assurance that when the Great Tribulation starts
that any Gentile will be saved.
The Whole plan of God for the 70th Week of Daniel, also called:
the Tribulation period, is to spring the mostly Gentile Church (universal)
members (the REAL Christians) [plan A] and to get back to
plan B: saving national Yisrael (the Jews).

It is a long story involving all the New Testament and 3/4 of the
Old Testament - but the short answer to your questions is "no".

So when you hear all the noise (it will be like thunder that lasts
for hours) and folks start disappearing right and left - then
you will know - you waited to late. The largely Gentile Church
Age elect Saints will disappear (and they may not be the same group
that does a lot of the talking). Now the Tribulation Period will start
- 7 years in which literal HELL comes to earth. 92-95% of the
population will die (and the odds are you - the one left behind - will
be one of them). No, it won't be like millionare writers say:
one will get saved
will sit around and trick the devil and/or antichrist (don't get
the prophets confused with the profits).
You will have to suffer starvation and plagues, if you survive long
enough. You will not be getting saved. If a gentile doesn't get saved
before the pretribulation rapture, they won't be getting saved
after the saved people disappear.

I've know several people, even visited their death bed, who said
they would be saved, later. They were so used to rejecting Jesus
and disbelieveing in the saving power of Jesus that - when the
doctor pronounced the death sentence upon them - they didn't believe.
I've been at the death bed of saints - they die easy.
I've been at the dead bed of un-saints (even some who thought they
would wait till the last minute to get saved) and they die hard.
I've never been at the death bed of someone who got saved at the
last hour.

Please don't bet your eternal soul that you can get saved after
the start of the Great Tribulation. You might die after the start
of the start of the Great Tribulation, or maybe even not
that (see Revelation 6:15-16).

Read also Revelation 9:20-21 - where humans do NOT repent of their
sins so they can be saved. Doesn't say they can't - does say
THEY DON'T repent. You gotta repent of your sins
before you can be in the right state to get saved.

Bapmom: //I understand if you don't agree, of course, but I think the point
of this thread is becoming obscured.//

Yes, it is. The OP = opening post, asks what time it is
and instead of getting the time, we get three different
sets of instructions for building different kinds of clocks.

BTW, i might mention that there is a branch of eschatology that
teaches we have been in the Great Tribulation since 3½-years
prior to 70AD. 70AD is when General Titus (later Emperor Titus)
of Rome set seige to Jerusalem which ended in the destruction of
the Temple as well as the death of 1/3 of the Jews in the world
and the enslavement of a second 1/3 of all the Jews in the world
were sold unto slavery.

Obviously, to this branch of Eschatology, the question is moot,
for it happened already and isn't future.

 

Like all people, you're free to believe anything you "LIKE",

but there's only ONE BIBLE, ONE TEACHER, (Comforter) and ONE TRUTH.

Becoming "dogmatic" before you understand it, isn't "wise", for "ANYONE".

"Humble as a child" is the only way the "TEACHER" will teach. </font>[/QUOTE]I suppose you're free to believe anything yourself. I have taught a Sunday School course on Daniel and Revelation and have thought a great deal about this. Upon what do you claim that I'm believing something I "LIKE." I believe what for me is the gospel truth. By the way, I believe it's extremely dogmatic to immediately attack my position without clarification or discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]I have, but evidently, time spend posting "Opinions" is more important than time spend "Studying/learning".

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html </font>[/QUOTE]Just respond to the scripture I posted rather than attacking me personally if you can, please.