Left behind

Preach it, Brother Ed!

 

Thanks Brother Ed! Very well put.

and Benjamin, we don't believe we are going to "sprout wings". Thats not all that nice for you to say, is it?

 

So to be “truly” born again means you must believe in pretrib manmade doctrine??? Sounds like you’ve been watching too many movies bro…or maybe this comes from some kind of cultish teaching? Put down the video games, read your Bible, and stop listening to the words of men and maybe you will know better than to base judgment of salvation on such nonsense.

 

Sorry, it was just teasing like:

BTW,

Maybe this will help

1x + 1x = 2x

X = Rapture=Second Coming

I haven’t seen you offer any evidence of a rapture without the return of Christ, but you can ask “Brother Ed” how many comings there are.

 

Benjamin: //... you can ask “Brother Ed” how many comings there are.//

You don't even have to ask.
There will be as many commings as
God wants there to be.
Here is my evangelical post on five of the Resurrections
------------------------------------------

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
---------------------------------------------

The first comming of Jesus was dual:

1A. comming as a babe in a manger about 25 Dec 01BC
1B. comming from hell & the grave in resurrection

Why should we tie God's hand and only let His Second
Coming be singuar? There is no scripture that limits
our Lord to one and only one comming.
If there was such a scripture, it would have already
been brought out.

 

So to be “truly” born again means you must believe in pretrib manmade doctrine??? Sounds like you’ve been watching too many movies bro…or maybe this comes from some kind of cultish teaching? Put down the video games, read your Bible, and stop listening to the words of men and maybe you will know better than to base judgment of salvation on such nonsense. </font>[/QUOTE]Thats not a basis for judging salvation. Those who believe in pre-trib believe that if you are truly born again you will be raptured, whether you believe in the rapture or not. Don't read more into the statement than was there.

 

So to be “truly” born again means you must believe in pretrib manmade doctrine??? Sounds like you’ve been watching too many movies bro…or maybe this comes from some kind of cultish teaching? Put down the video games, read your Bible, and stop listening to the words of men and maybe you will know better than to base judgment of salvation on such nonsense. </font>[/QUOTE]Thats not a basis for judging salvation. Those who believe in pre-trib believe that if you are truly born again you will be raptured, whether you believe in the rapture or not. Don't read more into the statement than was there. </font>[/QUOTE]I believe in a Resurrection for all the saved also, so I guess you would find be fine with me if I said, “If we are truly born again then we will be here when the trib happens.” Don’t take away from the statement that is there. I appreciate your work at peace making throughout the board, sometimes it helps keep me in check, though changing the subject to “what does it really matter” or peace making after you have made your opinions known instead addressing the issue at least in part does not help in search of the truth as far as debate goes other than helping to keep things peaceful.

 

Thanks Brother Ed, I knew you would faithfully answer the question. Peach it!

 

Brother Benjamin, Jesus Christ does not return to Earth for the Rapture - WE meet Him in the AIR! PTL! See I Thess. 4

Here is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, when He comes back to Earth (pre-1000 year reign) and WE (who have been raptured) ride the white horses with Him! \0/
Rev. 19:

\0/\0/\0/

 

I think we should be preaching the first coming, and let the second coming be concerned about itself.

 

Sister LadyEagle,

IMO, the “them” in v 17, is the saints (1Th 3:13) who come at “the end”, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The clouds being spoken of is a cloud of saints not clouds in the sky.

(1Th 3:13) To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

The “air” is the breath of life, being quickened in the Spirit. At “the end”, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (the subject of the preceding verses along with instructions of being prepared) those that are alive (being born again in the Spirit) and remain will have their flesh bodies consumed by fire along with those who are dead, but they (the alive) shall ever be with the Lord in the “air” or Spirit. I fail to see a pretrib flyaway rapture escape doctrine here from these cornerstone pretrib doctrinal verses. I would further say that it was known that 1Th would confuse some which was the reason for 2Th which includes the verse 2Th 2:3.

(2Co 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

That will bring me comfort if I am here during the trib at His coming.

(1Th 4:18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

As JohnV wisely says: “I think we should be preaching the first coming, and let the second coming be concerned about itself.”

(Mar 13:10) And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

So I do not care to spend a lot of time debating the trib when I have so much work to do to be more prepared in effectively spreading the Gospel.

(Col 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

First I will put my trusts in Christ and the Spirit that is in me which will never leave me nor forsake me. I do not fear that I may be here in the trib and hope to be prepared, armor on, and not fall into the philosophy of “easy rapturism”

(Mar 13:11) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour , that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

(Mar 13:12) Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

(Mar 13:13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

"easy rapturism?" Thats a new one on me!

Otherwise, I agree with Johnv.

 

Clean1:
//we should stop worrying when the anti-christ will come and who he/she is.
we need to be witnessing and warning the lost ones about what is
coming.... eternal judgement.
Oh... people cant get saved later.
AGAIN.... they had their chance before the trib. They rejected God.
...
your not saved or if you just put it off for another time
then what? you had your chance and you blew it.
same as the people who will go through the tribulation. ... //

Amen, Sibling Clean1 -- Preach it!!!

Clean1: //If we are truly born again then we will
not be here when the trib happens.//

Amen, Sibling Clean1 -- Preach it!

Benjamin's response to Clean1's statement:
//So to be “truly” born again means you must believe in pretrib manmade doctrine???//

IMHO (in my humble opinion) you have rendered false judgement
of what Sibling Clean1 said. Clean1 is speaking of the pre-tribulation
rapture of dead and living Church age saved & justified, elect saints.
All the saved at that time will be either raised from the dead
and given new heavenly bodies like that which Jesus has now
OR will be taken alive, and given the new body.

This event is spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 where
it is called in the KJV 'falling away', when we saved through the
power of Jesus fall away from this old world like the fig that is
overripe. We will fall AS into the very hands of our Lord and Savior,
Messiah Jesus. Or you can turn the camera of your mind's eye around
180-degrees and consider it as in 1 Thess 4:17 our rising (caught up)
AS into the very hands of our Lord and Savior, Messiah Jesus.

Anyway, all the saved will 'fall away'from the earth or be 'caught up'
into the air. It is a part of being 'saved', the final salvation,
the Glorification Salvation provided (like all salvation) by Messiah Jesus.

Your Eschatology will not make a difference about your being
in the pretribulation rapture. The pre-tribs will be raptured,
the mid-tribs will be raptured, the pre-wraths will be raptured,
the post-tribs (both kinds: a-mill and pre-mill) will be raptured.
The preterists (Revelation is a history book, not a prophecy) will be
raptured at the pretribulation rapture.

Clean1: //If we are truly born again then we will
not be here when the trib happens.//

Amen, Sibling Clean1 -- Preach it!

Benjamin in response to this statement said:
//Sounds like you’ve been watching too many movies bro…or maybe
this comes from some kind of cultish teaching? Put down the video games,
read your Bible, and stop listening to the words of men
and maybe you will know better than to base judgment of salvation.
on such nonsense. //

There is no excuse in debate to hastle someone in this manner.
Such non-debating excess can and will be counted against you
in your eternal measure BY GOD.

Anytime you feel like it, feel free to say what you believe
about eschatology. Do know we will give Bible scripture to counter
what you say or to support it - whichever is necessary.

 

DeafPosttrib: // ... both posttribs and pretribs are looking for Christ
coming, both are no difference. Pretribs prefer rapture first,
not want to face Antichrist or persecution. Where is their faith?
We should be strong stand and be brave like as soldier of Christ.//

Your statements are self-contradictory.
You say posttrib & pretribs are same-same. Then you tell
how pretribs are worse than posttribs: postribs are good
and have lots of faith; pretribs are bad and lack faith.

DeafPosttrib: //Pretribs prefer rapture first,
not want to face Antichrist or persecution//

You misrepresent pretribs. You are saying
that pretribs prefer rapture first; so they
believe in the pretribulation rapture.
You are saying the preference preceeds the doctrine.
Sorry, the doctrine is NOT like that. The way i
got my pretribulation doctrine was to study God's word.
Why don't you believe God's clear word in the Bible about
this matter?

DeafPosttrib: //I do LOOKING for the coming
of Christ - 1 Cor. 1:7, Titus 2:13, ... //

1 Cor. 1:7 (Christian Standard Bible (Holman, 2003) - /HCSB/)-
so that you do not lack any spiritual gift as
you eagerly wait for the revelation of
our Lord Jesus Christ.

Please do not make it read as:

you eagerly wait for the UNIQUE ONE AND ONLY ONE
revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ

Yes, only one revelation of Jesus is mentioned. But there
is no mention that there is one and only one revelation.

Titus 2:12b-13 (HCSB):
// ... to live in a sensible, righteous, and godly
way in the present age,
13. while we wait for the blessed hope and
appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

The first 'and' here is used to combine two seperate events:

1. the blessed hope
2. the appearing

(note earlier 'revelation' was used, now 'appearing' - two
different events.

Here in Titus 2:13 the 'blessed hope' is the equivalent
of the 'revelation' in 1 Cor. 1-7.

The second 'and' in Titus 2:13 connects two descriptors
of the same person:
1. great God
2. great Savior, Jesus Christ

Some people say that the 'blessed hope' and the 'appearing'
are two events happening the same day. I agree. They are
two events that happen the same day. This day is
is the 7-year-long 'day', the 70th Week of Daniel (see Daniel 9,
especially the last verse).

DeafPosttrib: //No way you can find two comings in the Bible,
because there is none passage find anywhere in Bible gives
a hint of two comings//

Interesting, half the verses YOU BROUGHT to the discussion
explicitly delineate two different events, both of which
could (I don't, but i could) be called comings.

Here is how I like to note the commings of Jesus to earth:
1a) 1BC - first coming of Jesus as a babe in the manger
1b) 33AD - Jesus comes from hell to earth the victor over death and hell
2a) 2005+? years - Jesus comes to get His own at the pretribulation rapture
2b) 2005+?+7 years - second coming of Jesus to destroy the Antichrist
and set up a physical Millinnial Kingdom (MK) of Messiah on the earth.

Interesting, none the verses YOU BROUGHT to the discussion
specifically show that God cannot have Jesus 'come again'
once and only once. The doctrines of the nature of God, of His
omnipotence (ALL POWERFUL), suggests that GOd is NOT limited to
one and only one coming of the Lord, Messiah Jesus.

DeafPosttrib: //Early Christians were eager looking forward
for the coming. None of them hear 'pretribulation rapture'.//

That is correct. Nary a one of them ever heard of the
English words 'pretribulation' nor 'rapture'. Very few probably
had head the Latin word upon which 'rapture ('caught up') is made
seeing how they probably spoke Greek.
Neither did these Christians, even the ones who had read
the book of Revelation, know that in the future mankind would
know how to do every curse of the Tribulation Period.
There is one thing prophecied though that mankind still
cannot do: THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE. Until Scotty shows up,
nobody knows how to beam the saints up to the sky and thense
into heaven. The rapture is a miracle (only God can perform) but
the Apostacy can be faked by the Antichrist. So guess what
I think 2 Thess 2:3 means which it speaks of (in the KJV)
'the falling away'.

Whether or not 'the Apostacy' has happened is a matter of OPINION.
Why shoot, some say it is here already.
If the rapture takes place, lost and saved alight will agree -
something happened. So guess what
I think 2 Thess 2:3 means which it speaks of (in the KJV)
'the falling away'. Hint: Ed believes the 'falling away' of
2 Thess 2:3 (in the KJV) is the pretribulation rapture.

DeafPosttrib: //Early Christians were eager looking forward for the coming.
None of them hear 'pretribulation rapture'. Because it was
not yet exist doctrine.//

When did this Doctrine first exist?
You need to keep yourself scantified through Jesus today cause
you never know which day the Russians will nuke you dead.
the answer - in 1949.
Note that 1949 is the year after Israel became a nation again.
I also note that 1949 is the first year i specifically remember.
(I was six) I though it was neat that each year would have
a number - wow!

When did this Doctrine first exist?
You need to keep yourself scantified through Jesus day today cause
you never know which day the North Koreans will nuke you dead.
Answer: this isn't a doctrine, YET???

Bapmom: //If there are people
saved during the Trib, than there WILL be elect on earth at that time,
so God will have a "reason" to "shorten the last days." No contradiction.//

There was no contradiction in the first place.
The 'reason' to 'shorten the days' is because of the saints
in heaven. Saints are in heaven (pretrib rapture, you know )
Jesus is in heaven. The Saints in heaven talk to Jesus.

However, the Tribulation Period is God's plan to save
the national Israeli/Jews. It is Israeli/Jews who will be
the elect saved saints of the Tribulation. When a Israeli/Jew
realises that Jesus is really their Messiah (and not the Antichrist
who will claim to be both Messiah and God) - they will be saved.
The Elect Jewish Israeli Saint will be saved during the Tribulation
Period. I don't expect many gentiles will be saved during
the Tribulation period, not because they can't but because they won't

 

There is no excuse in debate to bring up this possible situation
of misinterpretation again parroting the thoughts of Bapmom.
She made the point already and I told her I appreciated
being kept in check. Clean1 never even had a chance to answer
for himself and if he had and told me I had him wrong
on the FULL sentence I quoted he would have got an apology.
Such non-debating excess works both ways in our eternal measure of BY GOD.

Well, thank you for the invite Ed and do know that we will
give Biblical scripture to counter what you say or to support it also
if we decide to take part.

Ed, this is very close to what you just chastised me on.

IMHO (thanks, got that one) Brother DPT is speaking to the point
that you should not fear the Anti-Christ and persecution.
The saved have nothing to fear from him and what he
can do to this flesh body. It is being deceived that you should
fear and listen to the Words of Christ about the warnings.

Ed, you have said words to the effect that you were
saved after listening to a sermon on pretribulation
rapture. Why would you deny that you were
influenced by the words of man? It is very obvious
to us were you got your start of doctrine from. Please
consider that this could be rendering false
witness in the eyes of God.

We do believe God’s clear word in the Bible about
the matter. Why would you say we don’t believe
God just because we don’t buy into man’s (your) doctrine?

Nevermind

Now Ed, Ben has a lot of problems believing the
“falling away” doesn’t mean falling away.

(2Th 2:3) Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(2Th 2:4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
showing himself that he is God.

Hint: the subject is about the day of Christ at hand
and being deceived and also telling us
about how the son of perdition will be showing himself
as God. Why would we need to know these things
if we done raptured out of here beforehand?

Overripe??? I’ll pray that my flight not be in the Winter and to
and recognize when Summer is near by seeing these thing spoken
off come to pass. I will likely see the “flying away” but hearing the Word
I will be prepared because there is going to be a lot of seducing
going on and many false Christ and prophets.
Maybe you should learn the parable of the fig tree
so you will know in like manner how this second coming
(resurrection) is going to happen and you will know when
it is near.

(Mar 13:28) Now learn a parable of the fig tree;
When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves,
ye know that summer is near:

(Mar 13:29) So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass,
know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Hint: we will see these things come to pass.

We have been told not to be deceived, a fall means down
and a flight means up in my camera; so now your telling
us to turn it 180-degrees. Falling away=defection from truth, now
how
would that happen?

Amen! Brother DPT, Preach it!

Sorry, but my Bible says, “Let no man deceive you
by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;”

Not sure if that is a threat or a promise.
I think I’ll play it safe though if you don’t mind.
For now I won’t take up all kinds
of room on the board trying to build my
case with riddles and winks of the eye
using overwhelmingly long posts to
create an overbearing smokescreen to scroll
past if someone wants to discuss the
subject.

I realize thee are many views on Eschatology
and I will feel free to discuss it if and when
I feel the need at anytime. Thanks

 

Ed Edward: //The way i
got my pretribulation doctrine was to study God's word.//

Benjamin: //Ed, you have said words to the effect that you were
saved after listening to a sermon on pretribulation
rapture. Why would you deny that you were
influenced by the words of man? It is very obvious
to us were you got your start of doctrine from. Please
consider that this could be rendering false
witness in the eyes of God.//

What you say can only be true IF i never grew.
Please don't imply I've been Saved for 54 years and
never grew. People keep telling me "go read the scriptures
like they are new and you will beleive just like I do".
Sorry, I did this several times. Now I let God build in
my life concept upon concept, precept upon precpt,
doctrine upon doctrine.

Anyway, it is a futile effort to try to assign motive
(an quite against the rules).

It is a Logical error to say that God believes just like
you do. The title of the error is 'Argumentum ad
Veredundiam (appeal to authority)'.

Benjamin: //For now I won’t take up all kinds
of room on the board trying to build my
case with riddles and winks of the eye
using overwhelmingly long posts to
create an overbearing smokescreen to scroll
past if someone wants to discuss the
subject.//

I'm sorry, i'll not be playing your game of
'damned if you do; damned if you don't".
If my posts are short, scream 'explain';
if my posts are long, scream "overwhelmingly long posts to
create an overbearing smokescreen".

Benjamin: //Now Ed, Ben has a lot of problems believing the
“falling away” doesn’t mean falling away.//

So, what makes your definition superior to mine?
I beleive that 'falling away' means 'falling away'
but i believe that my 'falling away' is not the
same as your 'falling away'.
In 2 Thess 2:1 Paul speaks of two events.
the 'and', i say, connects two different sets
but you say the 'and' connects two different titles
for the same set (you have to say that or change your
eschatology). So we are discussing the meaning of
'and' in 2 Thess 2:1.

TONGUE IN CHEEK: why don't you believe that 'and'
means 'and'?

My clock says go to work, i'm not through
responding ....

 

I have heard it sais all my life (73 yrs) that "God hates sin but loves the sinner." Is this an implied statement or is the actual scripture to thei effect? If so where is it found in the Bible?

 

WHYME,

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth HIS love toward US, in that, WHILE WE WERE YET sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Just to mention a couple

There's also "we love Him because He first loved us", though I can't remember the exact reference for that right now.