Let’s take a closer look at the importance of forgiveness

[BobRyan]

Thus Matt 18 is a perfect illustration by Christ of the Ezek 18 truth already in scripture in His day.

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''


As well as the affirmation of His teaching in Matt 6

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matt 6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.[/FONT]

 

[DHK]

[FONT=&quot]Matthew Henry [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even Matthew Henry who clings to OSAS no matter what the Text says admits this text is about salvation -- heaven or hell.[/FONT]

Verses 21-29
The wicked man would be saved, if he turned from his evil ways. The true penitent is a true believer. None of his former transgressions shall be mentioned unto him, but in the righteousness which he has done, as the fruit of faith and the effect of conversion, he shall surely live. The question is not whether the truly righteous ever become apostates. It is certain that many who for a time were thought to be righteous, do so, while Ezekiel 18:26, Ezekiel 18:27 speaks the fulness of pardoning mercy: when sin is forgiven, it is blotted out, it is remembered no more. In their righteousness they shall live; not for their righteousness, as if that were an atonement for their sins, but in their righteousness, which is one of the blessings purchased by the Mediator. What encouragement a repenting, returning sinner has to hope for pardon and life according to this promise! In Ezekiel 18:28 is the beginning and progress of repentance. True believers watch and pray, and continue to the end, and they are saved. In all our disputes with God, he is in the right, and we are in the wrong.

MH is commenting on the same verses that I told you were directed at Israel. You are saying nothing new, except that he has a slightly different take on it.

What about the passage just before this one; verses 10-21, what does he say there?

As it was in the royal line of the kings of Judah, so it often happens in private families, that godly parents have wicked children and wicked parents have godly children. Now here he shows,
1. That a wicked man shall certainly perish in his iniquity, though he be the son of a pious father. If that righteous man before described beget a son whose character is the reverse of his father's, his condition will certainly be so too. (1.) It is supposed as no uncommon case, but a very melancholy one, that the child of a very godly father, notwithstanding all the instructions given him, the good education he has had and the needful rebukes that have been given him, and the restraints he has been laid under, after all the pains taken with him and prayers put up for him, may yet prove notoriously wicked and vile, the grief of his father, the shame of his family, and the curse and plague of his generation. He is here supposed to allow himself in all those enormities which his good father dreaded and carefully avoided, and to shake off all those good duties which his father made conscience of and took satisfaction in; he undoes all that his father did, and goes counter to his example in every thing. He is here described to be a highwayman--a robber and a shedder of blood. He is an idolater: He has eaten upon the mountains (Eze 18:11) and has lifted up his eyes to the idols, which his good father never did, and has come at length not only to feast with the idolaters, but to sacrifice with them, which is here called committing abomination, for the way of sin is down-hill. He is an adulterer, has defiled his neighbour's wife. He is an oppressor even of the poor and needy; he robs the spital, and squeezes those who, he knows, cannot defend themselves, and takes a pride and pleasure in trampling upon the weak and impoverishing those that are poor already. He takes away from those to whom he should give. He has spoiled by violence and open force; he has given forth upon usury, and so spoiled by contract; and he has not restored the pledge, but unjustly detained it even when the debt was paid. Let those good parents that have wicked children not look upon their case as singular; it is a case put here; and by it we see that grace does not run in the blood, nor always attend the means of grace. The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, for then the children that are well taught would do well, but God will let us know that his grace is his own and his Spirit a free-agent, and that though we are tied to give our children a good education he is not tied to bless it. In this, as much as any thing, appears the power of original sin and the necessity of special grace. (2.) We are here assured that this wicked man shall perish for ever in his iniquity, notwithstanding his being the son of a good father. He may perhaps prosper awhile in the world, for the sake of the piety of his ancestors, but, having committed all these abominations, and never repented of them, he shall not live, he shall not be happy in the favour of God; though he may escape the sword of men, he shall not escape the curse of God. He shall surely die; he shall be for ever miserable; his blood shall be upon him. He may thank himself; he is his own destroyed. And his relation to a good father will be so far from standing him in stead that it will aggravate his sin and his condemnation. It made his sin the more heinous, nay, it made him really the more vile and profligate, and, consequently, will make his misery hereafter the more intolerable.

The relationship is between a father and his child, obviously.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew Henry states that this is a discussion about eternal salvation - not merely civil justice.


" Ezekiel 18:26, Ezekiel 18:27 speaks the fulness of pardoning mercy: when sin is forgiven, it is blotted out, it is remembered no more". this not talking about civil justice.

"In their righteousness they shall live; not for their righteousness, as if that were an atonement for their sins, but in their righteousness, which is one of the blessings purchased by the Mediator."

 

[BobRyan]

Adam Clarke also points out that Ezek 18 is about eternal salvation and cannot be limited to "civil justice".

Adam Clarke - says Ezek 18 is about eternal salvation

Verse 4
All souls are mine - Equally so; I am the Father of the spirits of all flesh, and shall deal impartially with the whole.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die - None shall die for another‘s crimes, none shall be saved by another‘s righteousness. Here is the general judgment relative to the righteousness and unrighteousness of men, and the influence of one man‘s state on that of another; particularly in respect to their moral conduct.

Verse 20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die - Hitherto we have had to do with the simple cases or the righteous and the wicked; of him who lived and died a holy man, and of him who lived and died a wicked man. But there are two cases behind:
1.That of the wicked man, who repents and turns to God.
2.That of the righteous man, who backslides, and does not return to God by repentance. On both these cases God decides thus: -

Verse 21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins - And afterwards walk according to the character of the righteous already specified shall he find mercy, and be for ever saved? Yes.

Verse 22
[FONT=&quot]All his transgressions - [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Shall be so completely forgiven by God‘s mercy, that they shall not be even mentioned to him; and if he live and die in this recovered state, he shall live with God to all eternity. [/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

The relationship is between a father and his child, obviously.

Matthew Henry states that it cannot be limited to civil matters but Ezek 18 applies to eternal salvation.

Your point that it can include them does not change the fact that the forgiveness revoked for the Righteous and full forgiveness for the wicked are eternal salvation issues both in Ezek 18, and in Matt 18.

Time to consider the Free Will Baptist option.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Burton Coffman - vs 21
This passage regarding the possibility of a man becoming free from his own sins has been called, "the most precious word in the whole Book of Ezekiel."[14]
What is God's ultimate objective for human life? It certainly is not the destruction of the wicked. As an apostle said, "God is longsuffering to you-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). "God's pleasure is that the wicked should turn from his evil way, and live."[15]
The Calvinistic nonsense that a person "once saved is always saved" encounters here a shocking refutation in the behavior of the righteous man, "who turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and all the abominations that the wicked man doeth (Ezekiel 18:24)." Could such a thing occur? Is the Word of God true?

 

[DHK]

Burton Coffman - vs 21
This passage regarding the possibility of a man becoming free from his own sins has been called, "the most precious word in the whole Book of Ezekiel."[14]
What is God's ultimate objective for human life? It certainly is not the destruction of the wicked. As an apostle said, "God is longsuffering to you-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). "God's pleasure is that the wicked should turn from his evil way, and live."[15]
The Calvinistic nonsense that a person "once saved is always saved" encounters here a shocking refutation in the behavior of the righteous man, "who turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and all the abominations that the wicked man doeth (Ezekiel 18:24)." Could such a thing occur? Is the Word of God true?

In the example given in Ez.18:1-25, the nation of Israel is giving an excuse. But it becomes painfully obvious that if the person does not repent he will die a physical death. That is the result of civil law. MH points that out.
However, that being said, if he dies unrepentant, as is with all OT characters he may suffer eternally, having never repented initially in his life. IOW, he was never saved in the first place. MH also points that out. He, all his life has lived a life uncharacteristic of a saved person. It has brought upon him both civil death and eternal death--obviously.

The fruit of a saved person is not murder and robbery and the oppression of the poor. That is the fruit of the unsaved. However the emphasis of the first 25 verses is still on civil law.

 

[evangelist-7]

What about lying? If you lie after you are saved, do you lose salvation?

IMO, all of the many LISTS (such as the one below) concern habitual unrepented-of sin.

Rev 21:7-8 • “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God
and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers,
sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the
lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Note: “… you know that NO murderer has eternal life abiding in him” (1 John 3:15).

However, the occasional sins of the BAC are handled by using 1 John 1:7-10.
.

 

[Winman]

IMO, all of the many LISTS (such as the one below) concern habitual unrepented-of sin.

Rev 21:7-8 • “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God
and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers,
sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the
lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Note: “… you know that NO murderer has eternal life abiding in him” (1 John 3:15).

However, the occasional sins of the BAC are handled by using 1 John 1:7-10.
.

Moses killed an Egyptian, David had Uriah killed, Samson killed 30 men just to satisfy a lost wager.

All of these men murdered, yet all of them are saved.

How do you explain that?

 

[evangelist-7]

Let's see if my totals are correct ... pause ... Mmmm, yes, 847 moronic posts (in total).
.

 

[steaver]

Let's see if my totals are correct ... pause ... Mmmm, yes, 847 moronic posts (in total).
.

No, it says you have over 1,000 now ;-)

 

[Amy.G]

No, it says you have over 1,000 now ;-)

:laugh: :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

Moses killed an Egyptian, David had Uriah killed, Samson killed 30 men just to satisfy a lost wager.

All of these men murdered, yet all of them are saved.

How do you explain that?

There is such a thing as confession, repentance and forgiveness of sin.

for both the saved and the lost. All should confess their sins and seek pardon.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Burton Coffman - vs 21
This passage regarding the possibility of a man becoming free from his own sins has been called, "the most precious word in the whole Book of Ezekiel."[14]
What is God's ultimate objective for human life? It certainly is not the destruction of the wicked. As an apostle said, "God is longsuffering to you-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). "God's pleasure is that the wicked should turn from his evil way, and live."[15]
The Calvinistic nonsense that a person "once saved is always saved" encounters here a shocking refutation in the behavior of the righteous man, "who turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and all the abominations that the wicked man doeth (Ezekiel 18:24)." Could such a thing occur? Is the Word of God true?

In the example given in Ez.18:1-25, the nation of Israel is giving an excuse. But it becomes painfully obvious that if the person does not repent he will die a physical death. That is the result of civil law.

1. In Ezek 18 the scenario for sins that result in death includes not paying back a pledge, lending money at interest, oppressing the poor, failure to follow all of God's commandments in scripture.

These are sins for which Israel had no death penalty.

Yet in Ezek 18 there are sins for which the wicked would die.

This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

2. In Ezek 18 the one who murders is considered righteous if he turns and decides to follow God's commandments. There was no allowance for such a thing in the civil laws of the nation.

This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

3. In Ezek 18 the wicked are condemned and die - the Righteous do not. Yet Ezek is writing to the nation in rebellion whose leaders, judges, courts, kings were corrupt. They were in fact mistreating the righteous. The wicked were in government.

This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Here is another based more on Scripture and repentance.
If your sins must be forgiven before you go to heaven, suppose you had done some wrong, (i.e. told a lie without confessing it), and suddenly died of a heart attack without notice, without a chance to repent of that sin. Would you go to heaven?

Never got an answer from this question Bob. Want to try it now?

 

[Winman]

There is such a thing as confession, repentance and forgiveness of sin.

for both the saved and the lost. All should confess their sins and seek pardon.

in Christ,

Bob

Oh, so you can sin all you want, as long as you ask forgiveness AFTER you sin. Oh, I see.

What happens if you are speeding and have an accident and are killed before you can ask forgiveness for breaking the law, do you go to hell?

But if you manage to squeeze out "Forgive me!" before you hit the tree you are OK? Yeah, that sounds right.

 

[steaver]

Oh, so you can sin all you want, as long as you ask forgiveness AFTER you sin. Oh, I see.

What happens if you are speeding and have an accident and are killed before you can ask forgiveness for breaking the law, do you go to hell?

But if you manage to squeeze out "Forgive me!" before you hit the tree you are OK? Yeah, that sounds right.

The insecurity camp does not like real life application details. It kinda thwarts their whole campaign against Grace.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Winman
Moses killed an Egyptian, David had Uriah killed, Samson killed 30 men just to satisfy a lost wager.

All of these men murdered, yet all of them are saved.

How do you explain that?

There is such a thing as confession, repentance and forgiveness of sin. (1 John 1:9)

for both the saved and the lost. All should confess their sins and seek pardon. (1John 2:1)

Oh, so you can sin all you want, as long as you ask forgiveness AFTER you sin.

Sure. And as Christ said "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My father..." in true"By their fruits you shall know them" fashion.

As Paul says in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

(And let's not forget 1Cor 6).

1John 3:4-12 tells us not only that "sin is transgression of the Law" but that everyone who has the hope of eternal life "purifies himself" through the Romans 8 process of "By the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh"

What happens if you are speeding and have an accident and are killed before you can ask forgiveness

I never said "lost each time you sin" -- where did you get that from? Steaver?? (Just kidding Steaver)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

I never said "lost each time you sin" -- where did you get that from? Steaver?? (Just kidding Steaver)

in Christ,

Bob

Then if one doesn't have to repent after each time they sin, then after how many sins is the minimal requirement before confession and repentance is required?
Five or ten sins?
One or two days of sins?
One week of sins?
Twenty to fifty sins?
How long can one go before God is going to send them to Hell Bob?
Where is the breaking point?

 

[evangelist-7]

.
Roberto,

How long are you going to continue to explain the truth to these people?
Because they insist on refusing to accept the obvious.

God is love ... God is merciful ... God is understanding, full of grace!
In being these things, God cannot be a legalist ... as are most Baptists.

It is all about the attitude of the heart ... our hearts.
The BAC who truly hates the sins that he commits ... sincerely repents of them.
If he/she is late on a few of them, the Lord understands and forgives.

It really is that simple!
.