Let Jesus be Jesus and Preterism Rings and Reigns all through the Bible

[SovereignMercy]

Maybe your jesus came in 70 AD. But he's not the Jesus of the Bible. His reign will be evident to all and bring in everlasting righteousness and the end of all wickedness. Even a moron can see the passages below haven't occurred yet.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

 

[Logos1]

I love it—your post was a real hoot Sovereign

Maybe your jesus came in 70 AD. But he's not the Jesus of the Bible. His reign will be evident to all and bring in everlasting righteousness and the end of all wickedness. Even a moron can see the passages below haven't occurred yet.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Thanks for the laughs brother. I love it when I get a futurist on the hook who likes to take all these apocalyptic verses rich with symbolism and literalize them.

So friend by what rule of interpretation pray tell are you able to take these verses and literalize them other than some spaced-out, moonbeam commentary?

There is plenty of precedence to see similar language as symbolic, but where was such language ever, ever literal?

Since we have already established that Christ had to come back soon after the writings of the New Testament if the bible is inerrant then it only forces this language to be symbolic as well since the world didn’t pass away and people didn’t get the mark of the beastie on their foreheads and so on and so on.

The new heaven and new earth is clearly a reference to the new covenant or Christianity. That interpretation is consistent with the bible and clearly can be a literal interpretation whereas the destruction of the earth and the creation of a new one can’t be literal and consistent with the bible.

You make this too easy for me Sovereign. You actually help me out if this is the best you can do it simply exposes the bankrupt, hallowed out, empty interpretation of futurism.

C’mon man—make an argument for your case instead of making a laughing stock out of it if you can.

I think we have here another example of what a joke futurism is—I laugh at myself to think I ever believed in futurism.

Sovereign do you realize that there is not one single verse in the bible that addresses the timing of the coming of Christ being anything but soon or near? You can’t worm around the fact that the inspired word of God demands a soon coming of Christ.

"No Dispy will claim that it is not, in fact, the case that an (even cursory) perusal of the New Testament doesn't often convey something of a "soon-ness" or "emminent-ness" to Christ's return. We already know that.....We don't debate it"…….Heir of Salvation

Well said Heir. Preach on brother.

 

[HisWitness]

first of all-im here to learm more about this and not here to argue against this--for i have been shown alot of what is being said about this subject-but somewhat i need more understanding on i have questions
1st--in Mat 24 verse 31-what is the sound of a trumphetand the gathering of his elect from the four winds by the angels he sends ?

2nd-Mat 27 verse52-53-states that graves were opended and that many bodies of the saints that were dead arose after his resurrection and appeared to many ant then when he acsended they did also with him---now i read that Logos stated that after ad 70 that the holding place for saints was emptied--but im reading that happened when Christ brought them up after his resurrection and carried them into God's presence and therefore from that time all those who die goes into God presence

3rd-what about the comment paul made in Thes of those that were dead would rise and that were alive would rise together all of them to meet Christ in the air--soif this happened in ad 70--pls explain what that event in Math was all about at Christ resurrection and ascention?

 

[Logos1]

His Witness,

Just wanted to say that I dropped by to check on the post tonight before turning to other work and saw your questions. All excellent questions that fit together well.

I promise to address all of them—but it may not be tonight—it depends on how my time runs. But I will respond as soon as I am able.

Regards,

Logos1

 

[Logos1]

first of all-im here to learm more about this and not here to argue against this--for i have been shown alot of what is being said about this subject-but somewhat i need more understanding on i have questions
1st--in Mat 24 verse 31-what is the sound of a trumphetand the gathering of his elect from the four winds by the angels he sends ?

Ok sorry for the delay. Let me try this very succinctly. I’m sure a much longer treatment is needed, but I need to move quickly tonight. To keep the post short I’ll answer each of your questions in a different post.

This is not a literal sound of a trumpet. We see the pattern established in the Old Testament. It signaled a gathering of God’s people. In Jewish thought when they were dispersed outside of Judea as in exile they were said to be dead—not because they were physically dead, but because they were cut off from the presence of God in Jerusalem where he dwelt in the Temple. Separation was a type of death. See Isaiah 27:12-13 where those in Assyria and Egypt are gathered back to Jerusalem. The trumpet heralded their return—their restoration.

In the New Testament the trump signifies Christ’s atoning work when the dead in Christ are gathered from Sheol (or where ever they are) and allowed into the presence of God in heaven. This is the restoration of Israel (spiritual Israel which of course included gentiles) The last trump is the end of the Old Covenant and when the New Covenant comes fully into its own. Those who are dead in Christ are gathered into heaven. Their restoration. For us this means when we die we no longer are stuck waiting in Sheol for Christ’s atoning work, but go straight to heaven upon death. Hence, at the last trump we are all changed—the dead restored to God’s presence in heaven and those alive then go straight to heaven upon their death.

If I had more time tonight I could probably explain that better—but in the interest of not so long a post and time let me leave it there for tonight.

 

[Logos1]

2nd-Mat 27 verse52-53-states that graves were opended and that many bodies of the saints that were dead arose after his resurrection and appeared to many ant then when he acsended they did also with him---now i read that Logos stated that after ad 70 that the holding place for saints was emptied--but im reading that happened when Christ brought them up after his resurrection and carried them into God's presence and therefore from that time all those who die goes into God presence

There seems to be some confusion here—The bible doesn’t say they ascended with him as in the description of the ascension in Acts 1. Let’s look at the verses in question.

Matthew 27:51-53
(ESV)
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Maybe you confused resurrection with ascension. We know for sure that they could not have gone to heaven at the time of the ascension because John 3:13 tells us so:

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Until 70 AD when the Old Covenant comes to a complete end and the New Covenant comes into its own Christ has not yet prepared the place for us and only then when his atoning work is finished and the place prepared can we go into heaven.

 

[Logos1]

3rd-what about the comment paul made in Thes of those that were dead would rise and that were alive would rise together all of them to meet Christ in the air--soif this happened in ad 70--pls explain what that event in Math was all about at Christ resurrection and ascention?

The greek word for air in Thessalonians (aer) has a connotation of spiritual air not the sky or physical air. If it meant the sky it would have said ouranos.

Those who are dead come into God’s presence in the spiritual realm they don’t fly up into the sky. This only makes sense—the bible is about spiritual matters not matters of the atmosphere. Don’t be confused by those who read that term in English instead of the Jewish (with greek dressing on it) as it should be read and understood.

We are all changed at the last trump in 70 AD—those who are dead go in to God’s presence in heaven and the rest of us who know Christ upon death go immediately into his presence at our death instead of going into Sheol.

I hope this answered your questions. They could be better answered with much longer and detailed answers that would be too long for a forum post, but I hope this at least gets to the heart of the matter.

 

[HisWitness]

ok some of that i understand but some leads to a few more questions

1st-those that were resurrected when Jesus was resurrected--did they remain on the earth till ad 70 and what did they do?--and it would been quite a point in history to have those that were dead to wander around in the city for 30-40 years and then go into God's presence.

2nd-so say the dead in christ at ad 70 went into God's presence--i can understand that--but if all the ones alive left the earth also,that doesnt leave any saints left to proclaim his word--then how was anyone saved after that time and where does that leave us today ?

as a side note--i completly agree that we try to use our english definitions for what the bible says and we totally make a mess out of our ideas in this day and time--we are in such a mess in todays religous realm:-(

 

[Logos1]

ok some of that i understand but some leads to a few more questions

1st-those that were resurrected when Jesus was resurrected--did they remain on the earth till ad 70 and what did they do?--and it would been quite a point in history to have those that were dead to wander around in the city for 30-40 years and then go into God's presence.(

The only thing that we really know about them is that they came out of the graves when Christ was crucified. We do know that they didn’t go to heaven before 70AD since the bible tells us in John that no one has gone to heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.

We can only speculate—maybe they were just around for a period around the crucifixion/resurrection.

Maybe they lived for a while and died again of other causes.

The bible doesn’t go into that so I would only caution about someone trying to tell you what became of them.

 

[Logos1]

2nd-so say the dead in christ at ad 70 went into God's presence--i can understand that--but if all the ones alive left the earth also,that doesnt leave any saints left to proclaim his word--then how was anyone saved after that time and where does that leave us today ?

(

The Christians who were alive in 70 AD didn’t go to heaven until they died later whenever their time came whether it was one day or 50 years or more. But when they did die they went straight to heaven and not to Sheol as those who died in Christ did before 70 AD.

Where does it leave us today—it means when Christians die they go straight to heaven and not Sheol.

 

[HisWitness]

am i understanding this right by saying that at the last trump which was in ad 70-all the dead in christ was raised and went into God's presence--and the ones still alive remained on earth until their death and then they went straightway into God's presence?

 

[HisWitness]

i do agree that the all things Jesus said was fulfilled at ad 70 including his return and gathering of saints but i have 2 examples that i must put forth

1st-all dead and alive saints was gathered up into God's presence:that did not leave any saints left on the earth after that time--so in Romans chapter 10 verse 13-14-whosoever shall call on the Lord shall be saved,how shal they call in whom they not believed,how shall they believe in him of whom they not HEARD,how shall they HEAR without a PREACHER---so it takes a Preacher to preach to humans so that they can hear and believe and call on the Lord
so how was anybody ever saved after that point if this is so?

2nd-all dead saints was gathered up and alive remained on earth till they died and then went into God's presence:Math chapter 24 verse40-42--verse 40 says 1 shall be TAKEN and one LEFT,verse 41 says 1 shall be taken and 1 left,verse 42 is refering to the coming of the Lord--so how does this portion of scripture go along with this

pls explain--i would like some understanding on all of this i have stated--i am kinda stuck at this point and cant go further till i have some understanding

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The greek word for air in Thessalonians (aer) has a connotation of spiritual air not the sky or physical air. If it meant the sky it would have said ouranos.

False: At least according to Strong's: It is this word:ἀήρ aēr
1) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air

2) the atmospheric region


It is so used in these passages:
Act 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off [their] clothes, and threw dust into the air,
You are claiming this is some "Spiritual air".... :laugh:

Also used in this one:
1Cr 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: Yes, let's understand this to be a "Spiritual air" oooooooo chills.....:laugh:
Or this one:
1Cr 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
Or this one:
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Or this one:
Rev 16:17 ¶ And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Whatever you do HW....I mean this, whether it is a "preterist", or a "futurist" or a "Calvinist" or an "Arminian" or a "Catholic" or a "Baptist"....ANYONE who tries to EVER tell you that a word doesn't MEAN what a word MEANS is LYING to you!!! Or is a mere fool who has swallowed a lie themselves.....Any post which begins with a statement like:
The greek word for air in Thessalonians (aer) has a connotation of spiritual air not the sky or physical air.[/I]
Is to be IMMEDIATELY suspect...and all you must do is see what the word is, and see how the Bible uses the same word in other passages...as I provided here. Anyone who makes a statement to effect that: "Air" doesn't really mean...."Air" is obviously studied beyond their intelligence. They are merely attempting to convince you that YOU (a mere mortal) are incapable of reading the Bible and coming to reasonable conclusions yourself.....That is Nicolaitanism, from such, withdraw thyself, HW and be warned.

 

[asterisktom]

Whatever you do HW....I mean this, whether it is a "preterist", or a "futurist" or a "Calvinist" or an "Arminian" or a "Catholic" or a "Baptist"....ANYONE who tries to EVER tell you that a word doesn't MEAN what a word MEANS is LYING to you!!! Or is a mere fool who has swallowed a lie themselves....

Aah, a bit over the top, don't you think. I do agree that Logos overstated the case on this verse.

But you miss a basic point. Sometimes people make mistakes in their zeal for pressing their argument. It doesn't make them liars or fools. Good grief, show some courtesy and grace.

I agree with Logos's understanding on 1 Thess, though not his comment on the one word used there.

 

[HisWitness]

i do agree that the all things Jesus said was fulfilled at ad 70 including his return and gathering of saints but i have 2 examples that i must put forth

1st-all dead and alive saints was gathered up into God's presence:that did not leave any saints left on the earth after that time--so in Romans chapter 10 verse 13-14-whosoever shall call on the Lord shall be saved,how shal they call in whom they not believed,how shall they believe in him of whom they not HEARD,how shall they HEAR without a PREACHER---so it takes a Preacher to preach to humans so that they can hear and believe and call on the Lord
so how was anybody ever saved after that point if this is so?

2nd-all dead saints was gathered up and alive remained on earth till they died and then went into God's presence:Math chapter 24 verse40-42--verse 40 says 1 shall be TAKEN and one LEFT,verse 41 says 1 shall be taken and 1 left,verse 42 is refering to the coming of the Lord--so how does this portion of scripture go along with this

ahhh--i have searched more and now see that the one taken and one left is actually not the saints being taken but the others as was in the days of Noah when they all were took away with the flood

So now its very clear to me that the Saints that were alive at Christ coming was not caught up,but the dead was the ones caught up and the alive-when they die-they too will be caught up together with the others

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Aah, a bit over the top, don't you think.

Not particularly....no. I find it interesting that you come alive NOW and want people to be more "gracious".....Really? Have you been reading the last 14 pages of your compadres posts? I said NOTHING particular, but rather general. I used terms like "ANYONE" and referenced Theological ideas not being debated here, in an obvious attempt to make the statement general and not particular to a person. I didn't say "Logos" this, or "Logos" that, but rather spoke of a generalized "Anyone" who uses that kind of tactic. So, having had, nothing whatsoever to say about Logos's civility so far, and having (as far as I have seen at least) no complaints about Logos's rather intentionally insulting posts, I take your statement under advisement, but it frankly rings rather hollow to me. However, I might show rather more meekness none-the-less regardless of how others act, thank you.

 

[Logos1]

In search of a good argument from a futurist

False: At least according to Strong's: It is this word:ἀήρ aēr
1) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air

2) the atmospheric region


It is so used in these passages:
Act 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off [their] clothes, and threw dust into the air,
You are claiming this is some "Spiritual air".... :laugh:

Also used in this one:
1Cr 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: Yes, let's understand this to be a "Spiritual air" oooooooo chills.....:laugh:
Or this one:
1Cr 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
Or this one:
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Or this one:
Rev 16:17 ¶ And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Whatever you do HW....I mean this, whether it is a "preterist", or a "futurist" or a "Calvinist" or an "Arminian" or a "Catholic" or a "Baptist"....ANYONE who tries to EVER tell you that a word doesn't MEAN what a word MEANS is LYING to you!!! Or is a mere fool who has swallowed a lie themselves.....Any post which begins with a statement like:
The greek word for air in Thessalonians (aer) has a connotation of spiritual air not the sky or physical air.[/I]
Is to be IMMEDIATELY suspect...and all you must do is see what the word is, and see how the Bible uses the same word in other passages...as I provided here. Anyone who makes a statement to effect that: "Air" doesn't really mean...."Air" is obviously studied beyond their intelligence. They are merely attempting to convince you that YOU (a mere mortal) are incapable of reading the Bible and coming to reasonable conclusions yourself.....That is Nicolaitanism, from such, withdraw thyself, HW and be warned.

HoS Thank you for all your comments and sorry it has taken so long to get back to you.

I read your comments with interest and an open mind, but I think you are being confused by your preconceived notions on the timing of Christ’s return and letting that shade your interpretation. I use to be a dispy myself so a good argument can persuade me—I’m still listening if you can adequately support your case.

I think whether you are a "preterist", or a "futurist" or a "Calvinist" or an "Arminian" or a "Catholic" or a "Baptist" as you grow in your understanding of the Word you will come to better comprehend the nuance associated with spirit and read the bible more as a spiritual book and less as a scientific or atmospheric book.

The Greek word translated “air” is aer, which also means to breath—this is air in the spiritual not atmospheric sense. Think now what did God breath into man—his spirit that made him alive or some atmosphere which made him alive. We have a spiritual body not an atmospheric body.

Souls are immortal because they are spiritual in nature not because they are atmospheric in nature. We are God like because we are spiritual in nature not because we are atmospheric in nature.

In short, you have fallen into the trap of being so focused on being technical about greek that you have missed the bigger spiritual picture. This is very common in futurists they need to make spiritual matters atmospheric to get Jesus riding back down on the clouds in the atmosphere and Christians flying up into the atmosphere.

But all this having been said—let’s suppose for the sake of argument that you are right in making it mean atmosphere—exactly where would that get you in the big scheme of things? It wouldn’t make a case for a future coming of Christ.

It wouldn’t get around the soon and imminent coming of Christ so often spoken of in the bible. It has nothing to do with being able to literalizing all the apocalyptic language of Revelation that is symbolic and not literal. It wouldn’t move the date of Revelation having been written before 70 AD to after 70 AD. It wouldn’t make John Darby’s transformation of a prophetesses’ musings with an overactive imagination (Margaret McDonald) into biblical support of a rapture. I could go on and on and on about what it doesn’t do, but you get the point—futurism would still be bankrupt as theology, absent from the bible, and wrong for 2,000 years now and counting.

Futurism is just laughable under any real examination no matter how you package it.

 

[Logos1]

I'm accepting laurels tonight HoS, LOL

Not particularly....no. I find it interesting that you come alive NOW and want people to be more "gracious".....Really? Have you been reading the last 14 pages of your compadres posts? I said NOTHING particular, but rather general. I used terms like "ANYONE" and referenced Theological ideas not being debated here, in an obvious attempt to make the statement general and not particular to a person. I didn't say "Logos" this, or "Logos" that, but rather spoke of a generalized "Anyone" who uses that kind of tactic. So, having had, nothing whatsoever to say about Logos's civility so far, and having (as far as I have seen at least) no complaints about Logos's rather intentionally insulting posts, I take your statement under advisement, but it frankly rings rather hollow to me. However, I might show rather more meekness none-the-less regardless of how others act, thank you.

HoS so I’m wondering just what do you think of me—eminent scholar, bible teacher to the masses, widely proclaimed authority on religious topics, educator of those confused on the meaning of air usages in the bible?

Let’s hear it—I think you can add your laurels without reservations here after all we are all among friends and what are a few more accolades between old friends. I always get a warm fuzzy whenever I think of how your fellow futurists describe me.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel