Let your women keep silence

[rbell]

If you want to see 30 pages come and go quick...do "women in pants keep silent, and go to church every time the doors are open". This is the "it" conversation here lately

you were predestined to make that post...

In fact, loud women in pants who miss church are behind much of the "war on terror" attacks. They cause global warming as well.

 

[James_Newman]

Hi, Rufus....I'm just passing through today and I couldn't resist a little giggle. I'll be back for good sometime this summer. And I just might be ready then for round #2 of the "pants" wars, but you'll have to find James and tell him to bring his anti-spandex argument to the thread. :laugh: :laugh:



Rbell, you know better than that! You couldn't shut my lips up with an industrial sized stapler! Ha! :applause:

I'll see you guys later on this summer......be ready....just be ready!

Who said I was anti-spandex? If ladies can wear pants, anything goes!

 

[johnp.]

Hello Isaiah.

The problem I have with this view is that is seems to ignore role distinctions.

There appears to be a difficulty where neither side has a clear case for a point. I can take either side of the argument and not win it.

I'm in a role reversal. I stay at home doing nothing and she goes out to work.

Do not the man and the woman have different roles in the household of God?

No. Women have been in positions of power throughout history. I think it comes down to the curse - Gen 3:16 Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. - in that women like to shed responsibility and man likes their women docile. Usually they do the house while the man goes to work. Women are weaker on the whole, but prettier, so roles will naturally work themselves out. I don't see it as a law, we are free to chose our roles not have them imposed on us, whatever happened to free will? Every man wants a maid. I don't see it applies in the Church, there are no slaves in Church.
I know I'm taking a stand without solid scriptural support but so do the others. I have fun with my argument. I think it is better than theirs.

I must act according to my conscience and my good common sense, I listen if my wife has something to say that doesn't involve shopping or combing my hair. I wear the trousers in my house, she cannot command me but we can be equal. I want to be one with her, that's my aim. I don't want to be her boss.
I see no love in the posts of the different persuasion. I see law and self-righteousness and an unwillingness to free their slaves.

These differences in roles are not a superior vs. inferior but designed to bring order and meaning to God's family.

I like order but it mustn't stop women from freely expressing themselves with the gifts God gave them for the benefit of the Church. If the normal order of things change that does not mean that order is lost, just priveledge. Did the Church take a dive because there was no suitable helper helping?

Is not the Son equal to the Father, yet His role is that of a Son and not a Father?

I understand that. I have willingly put myself under my wife's guidance in several areas where is far more able than me. She does likewise. We have well defined spheres of influence.
I would be an idiot to take on tasks I'm unsuited for. We work together, (That's the theory), to produce the best result. We have both insisted things on occasion and the other has submitted. If she wants to speak to me about Jesus I will listen and learn and discuss it with her. If she is right I accept her teaching but more often than not she accepts mine.


How's that?

john.

 

[Salamander]

It all has to do with women keeping silent when anyone disrupts the order of the service and when the order of service is conducted.

 

[James_Newman]

How's that?

It's out of order, against scripture and outside of God's will. Doing things because you feel they work best, in spite of God's commands, is rebellion. Staying at home in order to send your wife off to work is not an option that God gave you.

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

A few items to pitch into this discussion:

Authority: is it not more Christian to think of mutuality and being servants of one another, both in family and church, than to think of "lording it over one another"? "It must not be so among you ... servants of all"

Pauline Scriptures: in the area of the place of women, Paul has lots of things to say, some of which are given as his opinion, and some of which he dares to call the word of the Lord. Are we required as people who do respect and cherish the Bible to take all of Paul's words equally seriously? Or isn't there some room to say that Paul is a limited man, shaded by his times and shaped by his rabbinical training, albeit able to reach great heights, as in Gal. 3:28?

Rationale: several posters have opined about why women would be given a subordinate place, again both in family and in church, and have gone back to the notion of Eve's role in Adam's fall. Is this truly a consistent theme throughout Scripture, or is it, again, a rabbinic argument that makes little sense in our world and time, particularly if we read the Genesis accounts as parable rather than as literal history?

Not trying to be argumentative at all ... just posing some things to think about.

 

[johnp.]

It's out of order, against scripture and outside of God's will. Doing things because you feel they work best, in spite of God's commands, is rebellion. Staying at home in order to send your wife off to work is not an option that God gave you.

haha! 1CO 10:23 "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

GAL 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Are there rules or something? ...I am what I am by the grace of God, He won't lose me. Strange that you should say I'm in rebellion because He didn't tell me as I speak to Him. I won't push Him on it though.

It's out of order, against scripture and outside of God's will. Doing things because you feel they work best...

That's just the point isn't it? If I feel it is for the best and it works and my conscience don't bother me then it's ok isn't it? I have the mind of Christ do I not? I know for a fact that I get away with nothing with Him, I do not buck my conscience very long.

Staying at home in order to send your wife off to work is not an option that God gave you.

Should I stop playing chess against her as well? She's beaten me a few times. Does working in the house make me effeminate? (PS. I don't wear an apron.)


Anxious.

 

[Salamander]

I think the LORD knows the attitude changes in women to warrant their submissiveness mandatory in the order of service.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Joseph.

Authority: is it not more Christian to think of mutuality and being servants of one another, both in family and church, than to think of "lording it over one another"? "It must not be so among you ... servants of all"

Servant of all. Cool.

Pauline Scriptures:

Paul spoke the word of God. PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
Even when he spoke off-the-cuff.

Rationale:

Is deceived worse than wilful sin? So what if the preacher women is deceived, it will not affect us as we will know she is wrong. It's not as if men cannot be deceived and women can't sin wilfully.

Genesis is literal or one can make the bible say anything.

john.

 

[johnp.]

I think the LORD knows the attitude changes in women...

Dizzy chicks do you mean Salamander?

john.

 

[James_Newman]

haha! 1CO 10:23 "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

GAL 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Are there rules or something? ...I am what I am by the grace of God, He won't lose me. Strange that you should say I'm in rebellion because He didn't tell me as I speak to Him. I won't push Him on it though.

Ha ha? Yes there are rules or something. They are called commandments and you are supposed to keep them. Paul's statement that all things are lawful is not blanket permission to do whatever you want. It is understood that all things that are lawful are lawful. It is not lawful to murder, is it? Is it lawful to commit adultery?

That's just the point isn't it? If I feel it is for the best and it works and my conscience don't bother me then it's ok isn't it? I have the mind of Christ do I not? I know for a fact that I get away with nothing with Him, I do not buck my conscience very long.

Your conscience is not infallible. Your feelings are not the Holy Spirit. You are right that we get away with nothing.

Should I stop playing chess against her as well? She's beaten me a few times. Does working in the house make me effeminate? (PS. I don't wear an apron.)


Anxious.

Placing your feelings over God's word makes you effeminate. But I apreciate that you don't wear the apron.

 

[Salamander]

Dizzy chicks do you mean Salamander?

john.

I just consider that the Lord knows women let their emotions get in the way in certain instances. It's a fact of life. It's a fact of God's order.

 

[johnp.]

Hello James.

Yes there are rules or something.

Well I never, whatever next?

They are called commandments and you are supposed to keep them.

For what purpose? Paul says differently. Everything is permissable for me. Don't you understand Jesus kept them for us? He took them away nailing them to the cross, I'm not under law. And I don't care if I'm an heretic now or if I am apostate now because my Lord will finish what He started in me, I trust in my Jesus, take your law and use it properly before you preach to me, be perfect as your heavenly Father is Perfect. Or join Paul who, as to legalistic righteousness was faultless, but he considered it rubbish. He said legalistic righteousness is poppycock if you know what I mean.

Jesus said, JN 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.
It is not a question of law.

It is understood that all things that are lawful are lawful. It is not lawful to murder, is it? Is it lawful to commit adultery?

Who wants to do that sort of thing anyway? I am a new creation. I have a new nature and that new nature is controlled by God for my benfit. I am not without my faults though are you?

Your conscience is not infallible.

It's good enough to declare me not guilty because it can declare me guilty very strongly.

It's my Fathers job to correct me. We should treat our conscience as if it were infallible, it is giving us a running account of our sinfulness if we are truely honest with ourselves.

Your feelings are not the Holy Spirit. You are right that we get away with nothing.

Who's operating my conscience then? Who are you to say what is or is not the Holy Spirit at work in another?

Staying at home in order to send your wife off to work is not an option that God gave you.

You make this judgment without knowledge of circumstance. What if she goes out to do the job she is master of, to help prevent sickness and disease? To enable our National Heath Service improve it's care for their patients? To teach men and women how to gain wisdom and knowledge and to make clever men cleverer is more important than me getting a job cleaning someone's toilets.

It is not right to make judgements of this sort. One must know the circumstances before lighting the bonefire, unless of course you still think I should replace my wife at work.

Placing your feelings over God's word makes you effeminate.

I never said I placed my feelings over God's word did I? That makes me a man again a? Do you not get feelings from your conscience? I get very uneasy when I catch myself justifying myself don't you?

But I apreciate that you don't wear the apron.

Anyway, I do my housework like a man does the housework. The problem with this is that she notices what hasn't been done because she's a woman, a bloke wouldn't notice if she hadn't hoovered up or if he did he wouldn't care. But I'm from a lower class where men are men and women know their place and like it like that. It is quite a stable system. Man ruling and women clinging. It was part of the curse and should be overcome in the Church because Jesus took the curse from us. That's a good argument.

I have a part time job sorting Lego for a website shop. She badgered me after our son started school. I spent four years on the couch watching tele and eating sweets with my son. We were heart broken when paradise was snatched from us. I now work 3 hours a day 4 days a week with all the school holidays off with pay and it sounds sweet to me. All without a guilty conscience. I can account for my time with no guilty conscience. I'm an artist and artists are not meant to do anything.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Salamander. How am I doing?

I just consider that the Lord knows women let their emotions get in the way in certain instances. It's a fact of life. It's a fact of God's order.

There might be some truth in the fact that women have more of a tendency to show their emotions but I think that is a difference not an hinderance. We might have a quicker tendency to hate and violence. I'm sure I can think of many a demerit for the little ladies but I'm sure they have an equal tally on us.

The feminine is part of God's Being. The difference in men and women is caused by that part being taken out of Adam, the feminine must have been part of Adam's makeup. God didn't invented masculinity or femininity they are present in God. Wisdom is Female. Adam was a man. We are not whole till we get that missing bit back. We must be one with our wives.

What you think?

john.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Hello Isaiah.



There appears to be a difficulty where neither side has a clear case for a point. I can take either side of the argument and not win it.

I'm in a role reversal. I stay at home doing nothing and she goes out to work.



No. Women have been in positions of power throughout history. I think it comes down to the curse - Gen 3:16 Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. - in that women like to shed responsibility and man likes their women docile. Usually they do the house while the man goes to work. Women are weaker on the whole, but prettier, so roles will naturally work themselves out. I don't see it as a law, we are free to chose our roles not have them imposed on us, whatever happened to free will? Every man wants a maid. I don't see it applies in the Church, there are no slaves in Church.
I know I'm taking a stand without solid scriptural support but so do the others. I have fun with my argument. I think it is better than theirs.

I must act according to my conscience and my good common sense, I listen if my wife has something to say that doesn't involve shopping or combing my hair. I wear the trousers in my house, she cannot command me but we can be equal. I want to be one with her, that's my aim. I don't want to be her boss.
I see no love in the posts of the different persuasion. I see law and self-righteousness and an unwillingness to free their slaves.



I like order but it mustn't stop women from freely expressing themselves with the gifts God gave them for the benefit of the Church. If the normal order of things change that does not mean that order is lost, just priveledge. Did the Church take a dive because there was no suitable helper helping?



I understand that. I have willingly put myself under my wife's guidance in several areas where is far more able than me. She does likewise. We have well defined spheres of influence.
I would be an idiot to take on tasks I'm unsuited for. We work together, (That's the theory), to produce the best result. We have both insisted things on occasion and the other has submitted. If she wants to speak to me about Jesus I will listen and learn and discuss it with her. If she is right I accept her teaching but more often than not she accepts mine.


How's that?

john.

Actually I wasn't thinking about who goes to work and who stays home in the marriage. I was thinking about the roles found in the corporate gatherings of the church.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Isaiah.


1CO 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation It's an all member ministry. There was a female apostle regardless of the shouts against it. Junia is a female in a man's world, she must have been exceptional.

Mary instructed the disciples. Mary proclaimed the gospel. Miriam was a leader of Israel.


I wonder who will say 'everyone' doesn't mean everyone, just everyone that is a man.

I'm tired and I'm not sure if I've answered you right. See you tomorrow.

john.

 

[Timsings]

I have scanned most of this thread, but I have not read it all. I looked at the link provided very early in the thread, and I want to ask a question that was posed on the blog on the link: Why does this one issue, out of all of the other issues we could be talking about, seem to be so important? You can go through the Bible and find plenty of stories about women in places of authority, women taking action to aid the Israelites, the disciples, and various OT figures. The previous posts have shown that the words of Paul are at best contradictory. So, where does that leave us? I think there are two points to consider.

First, getting bogged down in a subject like this does more harm than good. It gives too much significance to a trivial issue. Also, it distracts us from dealing with truly significant problems in need of our attention.

Second, I wonder if this places improper limitations on God. If God wants to call women to the ministry, who are we to raise our eyebrows? Remember Isaiah 43.19

I am about to do something new; this moment it will unfold. Can you not perceive it?

Tim Reynolds

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Hello Isaiah.


1CO 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation It's an all member ministry. There was a female apostle regardless of the shouts against it. Junia is a female in a man's world, she must have been exceptional.

Mary instructed the disciples. Mary proclaimed the gospel. Miriam was a leader of Israel.


I wonder who will say 'everyone' doesn't mean everyone, just everyone that is a man.

I'm tired and I'm not sure if I've answered you right. See you tomorrow.

john.

I don't have a problem with women having a vocal part of the service.
I don't however see women given the role of elders/overseers/pastors.

 

[LadyEagle]

I couldn't keep silent any longer, lol. :laugh:

 

[LadyEagle]

Rom.16

[1] I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
[2] That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
[3] Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: