-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Let's clear up one misconception
- Thread starter seekingthetruth
- Start date
He faced stress, as everyone does. But he overcame it, as he overcame Satan, sin and death. We all need to be overcomers.
Whosoever is born of God overcomes the world, and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.
Depression
Worry
Fear
In previous thread on the sweat drops of blood that Jesus had in the Garden, some pointed to his humanity and desire not to face the cross - a battle of wills if you please.
But, as this thread rightly point out, that cannot be the case, for then depression, worry, fear (which are manifestations of sin) would then have occurred in Christ making him an imperfect sacrifice.
What is the root of depression, worry, and fear? Is it the lack of trust?
Christ had the same problem with His disciples. Peter expressed this as he sank into the water.
However, stress is not a sin.
And a person who is over stressed can can, by becoming less trusting of the workforce, the home life, the ability of God slip into sin.
Medication can be useful in giving a soothing to the emotions (a hot oil/perfumed bath for the ladies, a hunting/fishing trip for the men). That is not sinful.
What IS sinful is a reliance upon the medication, rather than upon Christ.
Moderation is the key.
Worry
Fear
In previous thread on the sweat drops of blood that Jesus had in the Garden, some pointed to his humanity and desire not to face the cross - a battle of wills if you please.
But, as this thread rightly point out, that cannot be the case, for then depression, worry, fear (which are manifestations of sin) would then have occurred in Christ making him an imperfect sacrifice.
What is the root of depression, worry, and fear? Is it the lack of trust?
Christ had the same problem with His disciples. Peter expressed this as he sank into the water.
However, stress is not a sin.
And a person who is over stressed can can, by becoming less trusting of the workforce, the home life, the ability of God slip into sin.
Medication can be useful in giving a soothing to the emotions (a hot oil/perfumed bath for the ladies, a hunting/fishing trip for the men). That is not sinful.
What IS sinful is a reliance upon the medication, rather than upon Christ.
Moderation is the key.
He overcame it and God the Father sent an Angel to help Him overcome it. The point was He was stressed over sin and FAL said stressthat comes from sin is sin. Christ came from sin and God had to help Him by sending an angle, God helps us through with His power. God helps us through illnesses with the medication HE gave men the ability to create.
Depression is not always sin, some who are suffering from pain, extreme pain get down and depressed, not because they don't see that God can't get them trhough it but because of the extreme constant pain day after day. Muscles aching, migranes, IBS, ears hurting, constant continuous pain were on a person. They get depressed and irratible, but when their loved ones says I love you and you are important to me, I know you are hurting and I wish I could help that is conforting to them. But what if you said that sin and you need to confess it how much furhter would you drive them to depression and they could possibly hurt themselves. You see the depression from pain isn't the sin taking medicine to help relieve the pain and help them sleep through the night isn't sin. Sin would be reacting by hurting themsleves even more. We don't help them by laying a heavy guilt trip on them, we help them by showing the Love that God shows us and we help them through it, if drugs can help calm the syptoms of the physical pain that is causing the mood then we need to encouragethem to get the relief they need and not condemning them as some bad person because of their suffeering. We become sinners by judging them because we have a mote in our eye when we want to remove the spec from theirs.
Can depression be sin yes is it always no it depends on what brings it on. Deprssion in feeling sorry for ones self is sin, depression because one is constantly in pain and tired of hurting is a totally different thing.
Let's get our definitions straight, and then we can both agree.
There is stress, as in stressful situations. We both agree that is not sin. Jesus was facing a stressful situation.
There is stress as in being "stressed-out", anxious, worrisome, etc. The Bible does call that sin. Jesus did not fall into that category.
Jesus, in his humanity, prayed in the garden: "If it be thy will let this cup (of suffering) pass from me." He did not look forward to all the suffering he was about to face (from a human point of view). Satan was also tempting him. Jesus was not stressed, but was facing a stressful situation. God sent an angel to strengthen him. Jesus had no stress, no sin, and the angel was sent to minister unto him, just as they were at the end of the temptation in Matthew 4. There is nothing wrong here, and nothing that pertains to mental illness, only the mental anguish that Jesus was facing as he faced the torment of the cross.
freeatlast
New Member
BUT-if you have neurotransmitters messed up, you can feel depressed without acting out in sin, without dealing with stressors, indeed with no apparent trigger.
This whole conversation is so silly. Parkinson's disease seems at least in part to be a neurotransmitter disease also (dopamine related).
Nobody tells them they are sinning when they tremble.
This whole conversation is so silly. Parkinson's disease seems at least in part to be a neurotransmitter disease also (dopamine related).
Nobody tells them they are sinning when they tremble.
His body was under extreme stress, as we all face in many cases. A soldier gets stressed in the heat of battle that is his body, the heart rate goes up the blood pressure rises, andrenalin increases. All of this is not sin and Christ was going through it. The cup was not the suffering on cross imo, it was the stress His body was undder to the point of death and He prayed that the Fahter would help Him through that night and the pressures on His body. It was a stressful situation but not a sinful one. The stress was what any normal human body would experience and not be sin. Nothing mentally wrong.
But understand what brought the stress on? He knew Judas was going to betray Him, Judas was going to sin, He knew Peter would deny Him Peter would sin. He knew all would forsake Him all would sin. He knew He would become the scrifice for sin.
FAL stated that stress brought on by sin is sin, by technicality Christ was Stress was brought on by sin, not His but others, yet FAL said stress comes from sin and is sin, my point was not always is it sin, Jesus was the perfect sinless sacrifice, whose humanity went through the stress that any human body would experience in that situation and it would not be sin.
freeatlast
New Member
That is because trembling is not sinning.
freeatlast
New Member
Come on!
When I say stress brought on by sin is sin I am not saying it is from outside the person but inside the person with the stress. If their own sin causes them stress then the stress is from sin.No it isn't, and there should therefore be nothing wrong to take a medication that would deal with that symptom. After all can you not sympathize with someone who cannot pick up his own cup of coffee and carry it to place he wants it. A little medication would help that.
The knowledge of those things were irrelevant.
Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Let this cup pass from me. He is looking to a future event, the cross. He not thinking of the present or looking to the past. It is the future event that he is praying to the Father to "pass from him." The future event is the cross of suffering he is about to bear.
But he wants the Father's will to be done, not his. Christ's ministry on earth was all about the Father's will. His emphasis was on submission to the Father. In his humanity he only did what the Father willed him to do. His will was to go to the cross.
Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
--The Father's will is emphasized. Future suffering is what is being looked forward to.
Matthew 26:44-45 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
--He prayed the same words a third time, and then "His Time" had come. "His Hour" was here.
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
When did He offer up supplications with much treears and strong crying to Him that was able to save Him from Death and was Heard? Because He was heard He became the author of our salvation. God heard and anbswered His prayer that night for God heard and delivered Him from death that night in the garden. That was the only time with strong crying and tears Christ prayed that way was that night in the garden.
First note the context:
Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
--The author of the Book of Hebrews is comparing the High priestly ministry of Jesus to that of the high priestly ministry of the Levites. He is making the point that there is no comparison. Why would they want to go back to Jerusalem to the old system?
Christ also offered up prayers and supplications unto him that was able to save him from death.
Christ also was a man, and learned obedience as a man by the things he suffered (vs. 8).
And Christ became the author of eternal salvation.
Which is better? The earthly temporary high priest of the OT? Or the eternal high priest that can sympathize with you and become the author of your eternal salvation?
That was the only night recorded that Christ prayed so intensely that he sweat, as it were, great drops of blood. Yes, his prayer was very intense.
However, in Mark 1:35 he went into a mountain and there alone he prayed. He prayed and fasted as he was tempted in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights. John 17 records his great high priestly prayer. John 11:35 says: "Jesus wept." He prayed in anguish for the city of Jerusalem, for he knew of the certain coming judgment.
Certainly the primary reference here is to his prayer in the garden, but we cannot say that this is the only time that there were "strong crying and tears." The Bible indicates otherwise though it is not specific on definite occasions.
You said:
God heard and anbswered His prayer that night for God heard and delivered Him from death that night in the garden. That was the only time with strong crying and tears Christ prayed that way was that night in the garden.
The verse says:
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
You have it wrong. He prayed in the garden. He prayed intensely. He prayed to God the Father who is able to save him from death but did not. That was not his will, but rather the will of Satan. It was God's will that Christ die for our sins, not that the Father save him from going to the cross, or save him from death.
This was a reference to the verse "Nevertheless, thy will be done, not my own." God was able to save him from going to the cross. But God did not save him from going to the cross. He died for the penalty of our sins even though we were so ungodly.
He prayed with sweat drops of blood, "Hematidrosis (also called hematohidrosis) is a very rare condition in which a human sweats blood. It may occur when a person is suffering extreme levels of stress, for example, facing his or her own death" to which we see the bible say Jesus was doing that very night.
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Notice verse 43 right after His prayer an Angel appeared and strenghtened Him.
Notice also Marks account of that night in Mark14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
His soul was exceedingly sorrowful unto death then in verse 35 He fell to the ground both Luke and Mark show the agony He was in the stress He was suffering His body in such sorrow (stress) that He was at the point of death. So He asked the father to strengthen Him and an Angel was immediately sent to Him. Hebrews 5:7 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared
He was heard, the Father Answered His prayer immediately.
Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
His soul was exceeding sorrowful, even unto death, He wasn't praying not to go to the cross He was praying for strength to make it to the cross and not to die in the garden from the Stress upon His body andthe toll it was taking. Scripture proves it out.
freeatlast
New Member
You are suggesting something incorrect. First I do sympathize with them and second I certainly think in those kind of conditions they should take such medication.
And third I also sympathize with the person who has behavior problems caused by sin, but what I do not do is try and convince them their problem is because if a mental illness but rather because of sin which brings on the condition which some in the medical profession is calling mental illness. Those people need to confess and forsake to get past their sin problem.
It would be a lack of sympathy and love if I did not tell them the truth about how we are to deal with problems brought about by sin or if I helped them believe that drugs was the answer.
But what would their sin problem be? You would need to tell them what sin they were commiting, what is the cause. When they say like Job I have not sinned I have done nothing wrong and his friend continued their accusations. The Bible says Job did not sin even after the lose of everything.