examiningcalvinism, I've never heard of 'middle knowledge.' Actually I'm not much good at theological terms at all. I do know that God created time and so is outside of it and can see it all, start to finish. I also know that somehow this does not prevent our free will from functioning as His gift to us. I can't pretend to understand it, and that is actually what I would expect, being the created and not the Creator! But I know what the Bible says, and both those things are presented as fact.
I know God knows how much temptation I can handle simply because He knows me. Raising my own children, I pretty much knew who could handle what, too, and that raised some arguments when one child was allowed certain freedoms as thirteen or fourteen that a subsequent child was not. I did not have to be God to know my children well enough for that, only an attentive parent.
But of course I agree with you that His knowledge extends beyond what actually occurs. It covers every 'what if', too.
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I started the above last night, but I have been fighting a round of mononucleosis and evidently fell asleep at the computer and then was migrated to bed by my lovely husband. So although I'm sure there have been other responses in this thread since then, I'll continue with what I am aware of....smile.
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Pastor Larry, you stated, of Revelation 13:8, "Clearly that is a statement of intention, seen as complete in teh mind of God, yet not having taken place yet. This is pretty common in Scripture, particularly in prophetic passages. It is hardly relevant to the question at hand here."
I disagree. The statement is given about Christ in the past tense as an accomplished act, not simply as an intention. It still had to be worked out in time, yes, but that did not make it any the less real in fact. This is the reason Job could state that he knew his Redeemer lived. Redemption was already a fact in eternity.
Thus, although murder was in the hearts of those who hated and crucified Him, you will note that no one had to break His legs to hasten His death. He was already dead, by His own will and power, as He had stated would happen.
npetreley, when God says something never entered His mind, the meaning is not that He didn't know about it or never thought about it, but that He never intended it. This flies directly in the face of Calvinism.
I know God knows how much temptation I can handle simply because He knows me. Raising my own children, I pretty much knew who could handle what, too, and that raised some arguments when one child was allowed certain freedoms as thirteen or fourteen that a subsequent child was not. I did not have to be God to know my children well enough for that, only an attentive parent.
But of course I agree with you that His knowledge extends beyond what actually occurs. It covers every 'what if', too.
*************
I started the above last night, but I have been fighting a round of mononucleosis and evidently fell asleep at the computer and then was migrated to bed by my lovely husband. So although I'm sure there have been other responses in this thread since then, I'll continue with what I am aware of....smile.
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Pastor Larry, you stated, of Revelation 13:8, "Clearly that is a statement of intention, seen as complete in teh mind of God, yet not having taken place yet. This is pretty common in Scripture, particularly in prophetic passages. It is hardly relevant to the question at hand here."
I disagree. The statement is given about Christ in the past tense as an accomplished act, not simply as an intention. It still had to be worked out in time, yes, but that did not make it any the less real in fact. This is the reason Job could state that he knew his Redeemer lived. Redemption was already a fact in eternity.
Thus, although murder was in the hearts of those who hated and crucified Him, you will note that no one had to break His legs to hasten His death. He was already dead, by His own will and power, as He had stated would happen.
npetreley, when God says something never entered His mind, the meaning is not that He didn't know about it or never thought about it, but that He never intended it. This flies directly in the face of Calvinism.
Motive and oppotunity must be investigated.