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Let's Discuss I Thess 1:4-5
- Thread starter Tom Butler
- Start date
That is fine but you have made absolutely no case.
That's fine. Maybe someone will get something from it.
Tom, I promise you I'm not in the least angry. Could you/would you rephrase or ask your question again? Maybe I'll get it this time.
Larry.
Hello Hank,
Actually this has nothing to do with me being PB or my view on the Great Commission. I believe the 'power of the HS' referred to in the passage of the OP is referring to [copied & edited from a previous post on another thread]
'the gift of the Holy Ghost, i.e. the baptism of the Spirit, the clothing with power from on high, the sending of the comforter, which came on the Day of Pentecost, which was a gift to the infant church which enabled it to grow and spread and to conduct it's warfare “against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” This ministration of the Spirit was the ONLY reason that the gates of hell did not prevail against the church.'
I also believe that once this special minstration of the Spirit was no longer needed (when the Lord saw fit), it ceased. The flack I'm getting on this really surprises me because I was taught this as a SB, not PB!
Tom Butler
New Member
Let me come at the issue from another perspective.
When we speak of someone preaching with power, or preaching in power (the power of the Holy Spirit, I mean), we tend to rate the preaching or the preacher as powerful, or Spirit-empowered.
I'm wondering if we ought to focus on the hearer, as well. I'm talking about the work of the Holy Spirit to apply the gospel, the preaching, the message, to the hearer; to convict of sin, to illuminate, to draw, to regenerate.
This may not be the best analogy, but at Pentecost, the power of the Holy Spirit was not in the ability of the disciples to speak in other languages, but in the ability of those from other countries to hear the witnessing in their own language. The miracle was in the hearing more than in the witnessing.
This just came to my mind, and I really haven't thought it through. So there may be some holes in my thinking. Any thoughts?
When we speak of someone preaching with power, or preaching in power (the power of the Holy Spirit, I mean), we tend to rate the preaching or the preacher as powerful, or Spirit-empowered.
I'm wondering if we ought to focus on the hearer, as well. I'm talking about the work of the Holy Spirit to apply the gospel, the preaching, the message, to the hearer; to convict of sin, to illuminate, to draw, to regenerate.
This may not be the best analogy, but at Pentecost, the power of the Holy Spirit was not in the ability of the disciples to speak in other languages, but in the ability of those from other countries to hear the witnessing in their own language. The miracle was in the hearing more than in the witnessing.
This just came to my mind, and I really haven't thought it through. So there may be some holes in my thinking. Any thoughts?
The bible is very clear all over the place that God does the choosing. If God draws everyone, then no one would ever be referred to as God's elect. :smilewinkgrin:
But since God is not divided, then one group is wrong and the other right. The belief that man is righteous enough to choose God is not only unbiblical but is called self-righteousness which is the yeast of the Pharisees. So as 1 Corinthians 11:19, the reason for divisions between Christians is; "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you has God's approval."
So, is the power something that was demonstrated by some unique means in the preaching of Paul or is the power demonstrated in the result that occurred in the lives of the Thessalonians? I think it is the latter. For Paul says that his "gospel came to them not in word only, but in power". There are several mentions of how power was manifested in chapters 1 and 2. The Thessalonians "became imitators of Paul and of the Lord". How? They suffered much affliction as Paul had and as Jesus did. And they did this with the "joy of the Holy Spirit". This change in their life was so stark that they became a testimony to believers in nearby cities and even beyond. Other believers reported the great change in the Thessalonian's lives; how that they "turned to God from idols--waited for the Son from heaven--and served the living and true God".
In summary, the fact of their election is seen through the radical change that the gospel brought about in their lives. As humans, we cannot know who is elect and who is not. Only God knows. Yet, those who are elect demonstrate it in some way by a change in their life. For the Thessalonian believers, the change was radical and undeniable.
In summary, the fact of their election is seen through the radical change that the gospel brought about in their lives. As humans, we cannot know who is elect and who is not. Only God knows. Yet, those who are elect demonstrate it in some way by a change in their life. For the Thessalonian believers, the change was radical and undeniable.
So now, having said that, let me address Tom's questions:
Again, the power manisfested, of which Paul speaks, seems to be the power of the gospel to radically change the lives of the Thessalonians. This is what I derive from the context. It is not clear that Paul is referring to something miraculous or unusual that accompanied the preaching of the gospel as an addendum to the gospel that demonstrated power.
Since I view the manifestation of power as the change that occurred in the lives of the Thessalonians, I would say, yes, the gospel, when it is believed, always changes the life of the one who believes.
I don't think so. This comment seems to assume that the power is some miraculous sign or some spiritual sign. The preaching of the gospel is always sufficient to save a person who hears and believes. This power is inseperable from the gospel and is not an addendum to it.
This question assumes that there is some circumstance in which the gospel is unable to save a person who hears it. I can't think of a biblical statement or scenario that would demonstrate such a proposition.
No. But, again, I cannot conceive of a scenario in which the gospel would be preached, yet be powerless to save the one who hears it and believes it.
Again, the power manisfested, of which Paul speaks, seems to be the power of the gospel to radically change the lives of the Thessalonians. This is what I derive from the context. It is not clear that Paul is referring to something miraculous or unusual that accompanied the preaching of the gospel as an addendum to the gospel that demonstrated power.
To say the obvious, both groups think they are right and since there is no actual scripture to settle it, the proponents for each view will continue to support their view with the scriptures they use to support their view.. :smilewinkgrin:
Darren
One thought does not lead to the other. Is God's elect only those who are drawn or those who are chosen? Think about it.
Tom Butler
New Member
Oh, I agree. Although I do draw a distinction between the power and the manifestation of that power. I see the power as effecting change in the lives of the Thessalonians, not being the change itself.
I don't assume anything regarding any sign. I regret being unclear. I agree, the gospel is sufficient to save anyone who hears and believes, as long as we agree that the gospel is the "power of God" to salvation.
I don't see it as a question of the gospel's ability to save. Since some hear the gospel and are not saved, I asked if this might be a circumstance where the gospel was not accompanied by the power and the Holy Spirit. I guess I'm wondering if this is God's doing.
Nor can I
I see Paul's comment in the passage as related to salvation. I grant that it could also extend beyond salvation to changing lives, since one evidence of salvation is a changed life.
I don't see Paul as referring to some spectacular occurrence. I think in another post you saw it as referring to a spectacular result. That makes sense.
Tom Butler
New Member
I want to make clear my view on the power of the gospel to save and to change lives.
I do not believe the gospel contains an inherent power in the same way some might believe that a magic crystal contains some inherent power.
Whatever power the gospel has is directly from God, applied by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the agent of salvation, and the gospel is the instrument.
To some, the truth of the gospel penetrates the heart, brings conviction of sin and points the way to salvation. But never independently of the work of the Holy Spirit.
To others, the gospel produces anger, rebellion and rejection; still others, no response at all. To them, the gospel is mere words.
The OP questions wondered, what was the difference?
I do not believe the gospel contains an inherent power in the same way some might believe that a magic crystal contains some inherent power.
Whatever power the gospel has is directly from God, applied by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the agent of salvation, and the gospel is the instrument.
To some, the truth of the gospel penetrates the heart, brings conviction of sin and points the way to salvation. But never independently of the work of the Holy Spirit.
To others, the gospel produces anger, rebellion and rejection; still others, no response at all. To them, the gospel is mere words.
The OP questions wondered, what was the difference?
Thanks kyredneck and it's not a problem with me.
I seem to remember that Primitive Baptists just don't call the method by which they share the Word of God "missions".
I believe the crux of the matter has to do with mission boards which to them seems to far removed from the local church to be something they can endorse.
As I said I am relying on my memory, perhaps a PB member can enlighten me.
There was a time when I was very interested in the Primitive Baptists and looked for a church to visit but couldn't find one within a hundred miles or so.
HankD
The problem with your comment is that there is scripture that clearly contradicts it.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Jesus himself said he would draw all men to him. But not all that are drawn or called will be chosen.
Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Not everybody whom God calls will respond positively and believe. Only those who believe by faith are chosen or elected.
Calvinists get election backwards. You are not elected to believe, you believe to be elected. We don't elect the President and then vote for him, we vote for him and then he is elected. You must always meet a condition to be elected.
Ultimately, everything that is done is God's doing in some sense. If it were not God's will in any sense, it would not occur. However, evil things that occur, while part of God's sovereign plan, are not his will; that is, they are not his moral will.
So when the gospel is preached and people do not respond with faith, is this because God does not empower the gospel to save those particular people? It seems that you are arguing for that, please correct me if I am wrong. I think you have to read alot into this passage to come to that conclusion. I can see how this passage raises the question that you are asking, but I do not see how this passage answers your question clearly or even indirectly. In that case, we have to find a passage in which people hear the gospel and reject it and we have to derive from the passage that clearly addresses the issue what the answer to your question is.
Am I on the wrong track? Am I completely misreading what you are saying? Please correct me if I am because it is not my intention to read something into your question that you do not intend to be there.
The gospel still carries power. Some still receive it with joy, and some reject it in hatred and anger like this video.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f7_1179211068
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f7_1179211068
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
The glory of GOd was on that pastor. How holy it was to see him praising God after he was beaten.