Let's Discuss I Thess 1:4-5

[webdog]

The glory of GOd was on that pastor. How holy it was to see him praising God after he was beaten.

I agree...truly awesome!

 

[Tom Butler]

Ultimately, everything that is done is God's doing in some sense. If it were not God's will in any sense, it would not occur. However, evil things that occur, while part of God's sovereign plan, are not his will; that is, they are not his moral will.

So when the gospel is preached and people do not respond with faith, is this because God does not empower the gospel to save those particular people? It seems that you are arguing for that, please correct me if I am wrong. I think you have to read alot into this passage to come to that conclusion. I can see how this passage raises the question that you are asking, but I do not see how this passage answers your question clearly or even indirectly. In that case, we have to find a passage in which people hear the gospel and reject it and we have to derive from the passage that clearly addresses the issue what the answer to your question is.

Am I on the wrong track? Am I completely misreading what you are saying? Please correct me if I am because it is not my intention to read something into your question that you do not intend to be there.

My motives were honest in that I raised the issues in the form of questions, not statements. I am a Calvinist, but I did not mention it in the OP because I didn't want to possibly skew the answers. I also did not want to interpret that passage through the Calvinist filter. I truly wanted to get other opinions.

 

[kyredneck]

.....I do not believe the gospel contains an inherent power in the same way some might believe that a magic crystal contains some inherent power.

Whatever power the gospel has is directly from God, applied by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the agent of salvation, and the gospel is the instrument.

Tom, years ago I heard Elder Mettzinger from Colorado preach one of the most profound sermons I've heard, and, made one of the most profound statements that has ever stuck with me; he said:

"The scriptures teach us nothing. The scriptures are there to give us a way to articulate what the Spirit is teaching."

To which I whole heartedly agree. Without the Spirit it's just letters on paper.

 

[swaimj]

My motives were honest in that I raised the issues in the form of questions, not statements. I am a Calvinist, but I did not mention it in the OP because I didn't want to possibly skew the answers. I also did not want to interpret that passage through the Calvinist filter. I truly wanted to get other opinions.

I accept that. I think your questions are fair and I think non-calvinists/modified calvinists should answer them honestly. However, your questions center around a central question: why do some people accept the gospel and others reject it? I am merely suggesting that a passage that describes a group of people who overwhelmingly accept the gospel may not be the best place to derive a doctrine of why some people reject the gospel. It may be that the information your questions seek is not given in the passage.

 

[Tom Butler]

I accept that. I think your questions are fair and I think non-calvinists/modified calvinists should answer them honestly. However, your questions center around a central question: why do some people accept the gospel and others reject it? I am merely suggesting that a passage that describes a group of people who overwhelmingly accept the gospel may not be the best place to derive a doctrine of why some people reject the gospel. It may be that the information your questions seek is not given in the passage.

You may be right. I may be reading more into the passage than is there. When I read "for our gospel came to you not in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit....", I thought to myself, "hmm, could that mean that sometimes it comes in words, but not in power, etc."? So I decided to raise the question for discussion.

The excellent comments by you and other posters have led me to two other questions: Does my own conversion experience square with this scripture? And, does this scripture square with other scriptures?

As a child, I heard a lot of sermons, heard a lot of Sunday School lessons, heard a lot of evangelistic messages (during those two-week revivals, remember them?), heard a lot of invitations. But they had no effect on me, until one Sunday morning the Holy Spirit brought me under conviction, opened my understanding of my sin, and drew me to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus. On that day, the gospel came to me in power and in the Holy Spirit, where it had not before.

In an earlier post, I quoted part of Romans 1:16:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation.... but I did not finish the verse. Here's the rest of it: to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
So, this verse clearly says that the gospel is the power of salvation for those who believe. So this verse is consistent with the OP passage.

But what is it to those who don't believe? For them, it cannot be the power of God to salvation, for they are not saved. And I can't imagine one saying that the gospel always has the power of God, but mere humans can thwart it. Well, check that. Some of you will say it.

Anyway, based on my own conversion experience, and its consistency with the scriptures under discussion, I believe it is entirely possible that in some circumstances, the gospel is just words to some hearers.

Do any of you identify with that? Until you were saved, the gospel was just words? And one day it came to you in power?

I trust this explains how I came to raise these questions.

 

[Winman]

However, your questions center around a central question: why do some people accept the gospel and others reject it?

Yes, that is the question, but I don't know why it is such a big mystery to everyone here, the scriptures are very clear on why some men do not believe.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

2 Thes 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Jesus said the reason men do not come to the light (the truth of God's word) is because it exposes them. They love and have pleasure in evil but do not want to be exposed. Why do burglars break into homes? Because it is an easy way to make money, they do not have to work for it. Why do they break in late at night? Because the darkness hides their crimes.

And notice Jesus makes men themselves accountable. If God causes one man to believe but chooses other men to remain in unbelief, then God is ultimately responsible to whether men believe or not.

Calvinists say that God regenerates a man to believe, but the scriptures clearly make a man responsible for his own faith.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

If a man can only have faith if God gives it to him, then these verses make absolutely no sense. Can God justly condemn a man for lack of faith if God did not give that man faith?

The scriptures also show that the gospel is preached to the spiritually dead, and those that believe will be made alive.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

1 Pet 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The Calvinists can claim all day that God regenerates a man to believe, yet they cannot supply a single verse from scripture to prove this. But all of these verses show a man hears the gospel while spiritually dead, and those who choose to believe will be made alive.

 

[Tom Butler]

The Calvinists can claim all day that God regenerates a man to believe, yet they cannot supply a single verse from scripture to prove this. But all of these verses show a man hears the gospel while spiritually dead, and those who choose to believe will be made alive.

That is not the argument I have raised for the OP scripture. I am not trying to make a Calvinist argument here. What I am asking is :: Can anyone be saved unless the word comes in power and the Holy Spirit?; and, are there instances when the gospel is preached, but in words only? And, if so, can anyone still believe and be saved?

 

[Winman]

Tom

Yes, I understand your question. What can we say? We have all been to revivals where an evangelist preaches the word of God. At the end, some men go down and receive Christ and others remain in their seats unsaved. All hear the same word of God, and the Holy Spirit is present if some do go down to get saved.

And while this is not about Calvinism per se, the doctrines of Calvinism come into play.

Here is the point I have been trying to make in several threads. If God causes a man to believe, then the gospel is not even necessary. I mean, if God regenerates you and you are quickened, then why do you have to hear the gospel? You are already born again. Isn't that so?

But I believe the scriptures show that the dead can hear and obey the gospel if they so choose.

1 Pet 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Now, if a person can get out of a Calvinist frame of mind, it is very simple and makes perfect sense. The spiritually dead can hear and understand the gospel. And if they so choose, they can respond positively and receive Christ. But those who love their sin and wish to continue in it can resist and reject the gospel.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Now, 2 Cor 4:3 seems to follow the old Flip Wilson "the devil made me do it". But the fault is not Satan's, it is the hearer's heart that is the problem.

Luke 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

In the parable of the sower, the different types of soil represent the hearers. This soil said to be the "way side" has not been plowed. It is hard and walked upon. It cannot receive seed, but the seed remains on the surface where the birds come and steal it away.

Then you have the soil said to contain stone. These are those which cannot endure persecution. Then the soil with thorns, these are those that are more interested in the cares and pleasures of the world.

But the good ground is that which is plowed deep and ready to receive seed. It is here the seed takes deep root and produces fruit. But very importantly, notice it is the same seed that was sowed to these different types of soils.

When Jesus finished the parable of the sower, what did he say?

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Now, why would Jesus tell us to take heed how we hear if it is not in our control? This is the whole problem with Calvinism, it makes the gospel and word of God nonsensical. God stretches out his arms and calls sinners to repent when God already knows they cannot repent. Does that make sense to you? Jesus calls men to come to him when they cannot possibly come. Does that make sense to you?

But if you abandon this false doctrine and realize that men can indeed come if they so choose, then the gospel makes perfect sense.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Tom Butler]

Greetings Winman,

Correct me if I've misread you, but I think one of your answers to the OP questions is yes, one can negate the gospel preached in power and the Holy Spirit. This, as I understand your view, explains why some are saved and some are not when the gospel is preached.

I searched your last post and did not see the answers to the other questions I raised.

Do you agree or disagree that one cannot be saved without hearing the gospel preached in power and the Holy Spirit?

If the gospel preached, does the power and HS automatically accompany it.?

This is not a discussion of free will, but I want to ask you about this comment:

But if you abandon this false doctrine and realize that men can indeed come if they so choose, then the gospel makes perfect sense.

May one exercise that choice independently of the work of the Holy Spirit, and the power of God?

I'm really trying to confine our discussion to the OP, so I don't want this to degenerate into a Cal-Non-Cal discussion.

 

[Winman]

I'm really trying to confine our discussion to the OP, so I don't want this to degenerate into a Cal-Non-Cal discussion.

Agreed, although I can't help myself at times. :tongue3:

You ask some tough questions, and I am by no means a biblical scholar. But I believe the word of God was written for every man, even a common man like myself. And that is where I look for answers.

Do you agree or disagree that one cannot be saved without hearing the gospel preached in power and the Holy Spirit?

Well, I think the scriptures teach that the word of God itself has power. But... it is only effectual to those that believe.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

I cannot say I understand this, for who can understand God's power? But Jesus said the words he spoke are spirit, and they are life. But you must believe God's word for them to be effectual. This is like turning the key to start the car. The car has potential power, but you must turn the ignition key for the power to become effectual. The power to light your home is present, but you must flip on the switch for the lights to actually come on.

1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

I see God calling us with his word (which is spirit and life) from the outside of a man. His word has power, I cannot imagine it not having power. I see a man's will as the doorway to the soul. Man can receive or allow the word of God into himself, just as you open a door to someone on the outside. When the Holy Spirit enters a man, then he is regenerated or quickened. And I believe Rev 3:20 is a very simple, but excellent picture of this.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Man does not seek Jesus, Jesus seeks the man and knocks. He also calls with his voice. This is the word of God. And the man inside can hear Christ calling. Now, just as with people in everyday life, we have several choices here. We can ignore the knock and hope the person goes away and leave us alone. We can shout and tell the person to go away. Or, we can open the door and invite the person in.

Jesus said the spiritually dead can hear his voice, and those that hear will live. Those who refuse to hear will not. But the choice is with the hearer. The power is potentially there for all, but you must believe for it to take effect. You must open the door when Jesus knocks. If you do, he will come in. If you do not open the door, he will remain on the outside.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

The scriptures say here that Jesus is the Saviour of all men, and we know this is not speaking of only the elect, because it then says "specially" those that believe. Christ is the potential saviour for all men, but it is only effectual for those that believe.

So, IMHO, you are looking the wrong direction here. If you believe as Calvinists do that man plays no part in salvation, then you will never understand why some men believe and others do not. But if you accept that the scriptures say some men love darkness and will not of their own free will come to the light, you have a very clear answer. They don't want to believe. They have pleasure in sin and unrighteousness. They prefer evil over good.

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2 Thess 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

As I wrote earlier, I do not understand why this is such a mystery. The scriptures clearly state why men refuse to believe. It is because they love evil and have pleasure in it.

 

[Tom Butler]

Well, I think the scriptures teach that the word of God itself has power. But... it is only effectual to those that believe.

Which is, to me, another way of saying that one can negate the work of the Spirit that accompanies the gospel.

I am not going to get into an argument over the extent of the atonement or free will.

I will simply repeat one of my questions. Is it possible for one to choose Christ, exercise his will to repent and believe, accept Christ (or however you wish to describe it) independently of the work of the Holy Spirit?

And some more questions. Must the Holy Spirit convict of sin before one can be saved? Must the Holy Spirit draw a sinner? If spiritual things are spiritually discerned, must the Holy Spirit illuminate the mind with spiritual truth before one can choose Christ? If none of these things are present in the heart of a sinner, does he still have the ability to exercise saving faith?

 

[Allan]

I will simply repeat one of my questions. Is it possible for one to choose Christ, exercise his will to repent and believe, accept Christ (or however you wish to describe it) independently of the work of the Holy Spirit?

No, but then that depends on the persons view concerning the extent of 'the work of the Holy SPirit'. :laugh:

Must the Holy Spirit convict of sin before one can be saved? Must the Holy Spirit draw a sinner? If spiritual things are spiritually discerned, must the Holy Spirit illuminate the mind with spiritual truth before one can choose Christ? If none of these things are present in the heart of a sinner, does he still have the ability to exercise saving faith?

These are excellent questions Tom.

Personally, I answer would answer 'yes' to all of the above with the exception to your last question, which if the aswers to those previous questions were 'yes', then the final questions answer must be 'No'.

 

[Tom Butler]

Allan, thanks for your input. I purposely avoided the question of the extent of the work of the Holy Spirit, because I did not want this to become a debate over whether regeneration precedes salvation.

I am eager to hear Winman's answers to those questions. I have asked several throughout this thread, and he has answered only one of them.

One reason I'm looking forward to other responses is that I don't consider you a typical non-Calvinist.

I'm not trying to trip anybody up, just askin' questions.

 

[Allan]

Allan, thanks for your input. I purposely avoided the question of the extent of the work of the Holy Spirit, because I did not want this to become a debate over whether regeneration precedes salvation.

Oh, I noticed that and it is why I made it a point to say bring it up - and then laughed.

I'm not trying to trip anybody up, just askin' questions.

I know, I was enjoying reading the thread and couldn't help myself

 

[Tom Butler]

Good morning Allan. Hope you and yours have a blessed Lord's day.

I appreciate your answering the questions. One thing about it, you know what you believe and don't dance around any questions about it. Others could follow your example.

May the Lord be in the midst of your worship today.

 

[Winman]

I will simply repeat one of my questions. Is it possible for one to choose Christ, exercise his will to repent and believe, accept Christ (or however you wish to describe it) independently of the work of the Holy Spirit?

And some more questions. Must the Holy Spirit convict of sin before one can be saved? Must the Holy Spirit draw a sinner? If spiritual things are spiritually discerned, must the Holy Spirit illuminate the mind with spiritual truth before one can choose Christ? If none of these things are present in the heart of a sinner, does he still have the ability to exercise saving faith?

Good morning all. Tom, I apologize if I have not answered all your questions. Sometimes I tend to fixate on one, get carried away and forget about the other questions. But I am not avoiding questions.

First, I do not believe any man can exercise his will to repent and believe apart from the Holy Spirit. But let me clarify, when I say Holy Spirit here, I mean the word of God which I have already posted scripture where Jesus said the "words" that he spoke were spirit, and they are life.

I believe a man MUST hear the gospel. Now, the gospel was revealed progressively through the ages. Adam and Eve simply had the promise that the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the seed of the serpent, and the serpent would bruise his heel. This was the gospel as revealed at that time. As time went by, more revelations were made, Moses spoke of the Prophet who was to come, Job spoke of his Redeemer... I believe God only holds a man accountable to what was revealed at the time.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Notice importantly that Rom 1:19 says the unsaved can know these things.

Unlike Calvinists, I believe the spirtually dead can hear the voice of God, understand it, and respond to it of their free will.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Now whether a natural man can understand the gospel of his own, or must by necessity be "enlightened" by the Holy Spirit I am not yet decided. I have been looking at scripture for some time. Calvinists often quote 1 Cor 2:14 to prove that the natural man cannot know the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. And that is indeed what this verses says.

But I am not so sure this means the gospel. The gospel is simple.

2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The scriptures show a child can understand to salvation.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Now, I think it is important to see that 2 Tim 3:15 says "wise". I do believe a man's God given powers of reason play a part in salvation. Man can understand to a degree anyway. We see in Acts where Peter and Paul persuaded and reasoned with unbelievers.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

Now, here the scriptures say Paul "reasoned" with these unbelievers. So I tend to believe that even unsaved man has some ability to understand the scriptures. And the scriptures say this often.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

This verse says Paul not only reasoned, he persuaded the Jews and Greeks. Natural man has the ability to reason, and natural man can be persuaded. In fact, this must be the case, Paul would not need to reason and persuade someone who is already saved.

This said, the scriptures make it clear that it is the Holy Spirit that reveals the things of God. Now, I think it is important to note that the scriptures say "reveal". To reveal means to show or make apparent. It is not speaking of making or causing one to understand, it is speaking of showing someone something, or making visible something that was hid or not seen before.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

So see, it is not speaking here of causing a person to understand, it is speaking of making visible and apparent something that before was hid from view.
1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Enough for now, I will answer your other questions later. I hope I have answered the first.

 

[Tom Butler]

Winman, thank you for your answers. Some of your comments I agree with, others not so sure. Let me think on them and I'll respond.