Let's discuss purgatory

[Amy.G]

According to the Catholic Church purgatory is scriptural.

How do Catholics defend such a thing?

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life. The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead. For why pray for the dead, if there be no belief in the power of prayer to afford solace to those who as yet are excluded from the sight of God? So true is this position that prayers for the dead and the existence of a place of purgation are mentioned in conjunction in the oldest passages of the Fathers, who allege reasons for succouring departed souls. Those who have opposed the doctrine of purgatory have confessed that prayers for the dead would be an unanswerable argument if the modern doctrine of a "particular judgment" had been received in the early ages. But one has only to read the testimonies hereinafter alleged to feel sure that the Fathers speak, in the same breath, of oblations for the dead and a place of purgation; and one has only to consult the evidence found in the catacombs to feel equally sure that the Christian faith there expressed embraced clearly a belief in judgment immediately after death. Wilpert ("Roma Sotteranea," I, 441) thus concludes chapter 21, "Che tale esaudimento", etc.:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Clicking yoru link:

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

This statement is clear enough to tell even the casual reader that this place they call purgatory is a place of punishment over sin that has not been paid in full. Their sins still require a more full satisfaction.

Bible believers will find this offensive because we understand the complete satisfaction that God the Father made in the blood and sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

To make the statement like that website said, is to say that the blood of Christ which was offered and accepted by God the Father, did not fully expiate the sins of those for whom it was shed.

 

[Amy.G]

To make the statement like that website said, is to say that the blood of Christ which was offered and accepted by God the Father, did not fully expiate the sins of those for whom it was shed.

Yes. And it makes me sick.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yes. And it makes me sick.

Why?
Questioned. I accepted Jesus into my life when I was 15. Yet I still struggle with sin and have sinned. I still have a propensity towards sin. Why?

 

[Amy.G]

Why?
Questioned. I accepted Jesus into my life when I was 15. Yet I still struggle with sin and have sinned. I still have a propensity towards sin. Why?

Either the blood of Christ removes our sin or it doesn't. There is no partial salvation. I cannot work my sin off or good deed my way to heaven.

When Jesus said "it is finished" then it IS finished.


There is also absolutely NO scriptural basis for the teaching of Purgatory.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Why?
Questioned. I accepted Jesus into my life when I was 15. Yet I still struggle with sin and have sinned. I still have a propensity towards sin. Why?

You "accepted Jesus into your life"??? What, exactly does that mean?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Why?
Questioned. I accepted Jesus into my life when I was 15. Yet I still struggle with sin and have sinned. I still have a propensity towards sin. Why?

Jesus accepted my sorry butt into His life 15 years ago. And I still struggle with sin too and have sinned. I do not, however, have the same prope3nsity towards sin. Why?

Because I have been born from above. I ahve been re-created by God. But all sin, that is, this flesh wherein sin still dwells, has not been removed..yet. lol I am not dead!

But I have the Holy Spirit living in me. God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have made their Home in me. And the Spirit is set against the desires of my flesh so I don't do the things I wish.

In fact, I cannot make a lifestyle of sin again because I am born from above.

I could go on, but you get the point.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Jesus accepted my sorry butt into His life 15 years ago. And I still struggle with sin too and have sinned. I do not, however, have the same prope3nsity towards sin. Why?

Because I have been born from above. I ahve been re-created by God. But all sin, that is, this flesh wherein sin still dwells, has not been removed..yet. lol I am not dead!

But I have the Holy Spirit living in me. God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have made their Home in me. And the Spirit is set against the desires of my flesh so I don't do the things I wish.

In fact, I cannot make a lifestyle of sin again because I am born from above.

I could go on, but you get the point.

I still have the propensity not in the same manner as before and my life has improved. But here is the thing. Isn't Christ finished work sufficient enough for me to be free from sin entirely? Why do I and others still struggle with sin?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You "accepted Jesus into your life"??? What, exactly does that mean?

Non sequitur.
this time I mean that by this I asked Jesus to come into my life and be lord of it. My life did change but sin is still an issue though be it not what it was. "accepted Jesus into my life" is pretty clear what I meant.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I still have the propensity not in the same manner as before and my life has improved. But here is the thing. Isn't Christ finished work sufficient enough for me to be free from sin entirely? Why do I and others still struggle with sin?

You should ask a question that could have more than one answer.

What is someone going to say? No, Christ's finished work is not sufficient.

Try rephrasing.

Where in the Bible does it teach you that God's intent was to save you in this life to such an extent that you lived sinless?

 

[annsni]

If Christ's death on the cross did not cover all of our sins, then He died in vain. However Hebrews 7 tells us that Christ "sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself." So why do we still need to do more sacrifices for sin?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Non sequitur.

How is it a non sequiter?

this time I mean that by this I asked Jesus to come into my life and be lord of it.

Really? Where is that in the Bible? How nice of you that you asked Jesus to "come into your life and be lord (sic) of it".

Again with the "accepting Jesus" idea. I've never understood where this silliness came from, as though Jesus Christ, Soveriegn God of the Universe, is waiting for your acceptance, like a fat girl waiting in vain for the captain of the football team to call and ask her to the prom at the last minute.

Jesus is your Lord whether you ask Him to be or not.

"accepted Jesus into my life" is pretty clear what I meant.

Yes, I'm afraid it is.

When you say that you accept someone or something, that means that you accept them on your terms. That's why the Bible never says
that we accept Jesus, but that Jesus accepts us.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You should ask a question that could have more than one answer.

What is someone going to say? No, Christ's finished work is not sufficient.

Try rephrasing.

Where in the Bible does it teach you that God's intent was to save you in this life to such an extent that you lived sinless?

No, I really can't because this is the question of the Catholic. (I have an answer BTW) The Catholic resolves the issue by sanctification being a process which he/she calls theosis which clearly is still not complete when we die. So what happens if you die with out the mind of Christ and your process of Sanctification isn't complete? do you automatically become perfect or does this process continue until its perfect completion which is through Purgatory. If for instance you stuggle with anger and you still struggle with anger when you die can you still be ushered into the Kingdom of heaven or must you complete sanctification until you can? In a way its like a brainwashing where all the stuff from here is processed out until we have a christ like mind with which to enter heaven. This is the Catholic solution.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

How is it a non sequiter?



Really? Where is that in the Bible? How nice of you that you asked Jesus to "come into your life and be lord (sic) of it".

Again with the "accepting Jesus" idea. I've never understood where this silliness came from, as though Jesus Christ, Soveriegn God of the Universe, is waiting for your acceptance, like a fat girl waiting in vain for the captain of the football team to call and ask her to the prom at the last minute.

Jesus is your Lord whether you ask Him to be or not.



Yes, I'm afraid it is.

When you say that you accept someone or something, that means that you accept them on your terms. That's why the Bible never says
that we accept Jesus, but that Jesus accepts us.

That's why its a non sequitur because its an opportunity for you to question my salvation. I have submitted to Christ his lordship. But that doesn't mean I still don't stuggle with sin. Are you saying you don't? And note I'm just trying to keep it simple to make the point.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

No, I really can't because this is the question of the Catholic. (I have an answer BTW) The Catholic resolves the issue by sanctification being a process which he/she calls theosis which clearly is still not complete when we die. So what happens if you die with out the mind of Christ and your process of Sanctification isn't complete? do you automatically become perfect or does this process continue until its perfect completion which is through Purgatory. If for instance you stuggle with anger and you still struggle with anger when you die can you still be ushered into the Kingdom of heaven or must you complete sanctification until you can? In a way its like a brainwashing where all the stuff from here is processed out until we have a christ like mind with which to enter heaven. This is the Catholic solution.

That doesn't really resolve the issue does it? I am talking about two different things, justification and sanctification. The papacy blurs the two. The Bible does not.

God is not going to accept me into heaven on the basis of the process of sanctification. He will accept me into heaven on the basis of Christ righteousness being given to me.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That doesn't really resolve the issue does it? I am talking about two different things, justification and sanctification. The papacy blurs the two. The Bible does not.

God is not going to accept me into heaven on the basis of the process of sanctification. He will accept me into heaven on the basis of Christ righteousness being given to me.

So how do you resolve that you still have an incomplete christ like mind when you die?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

That's why its a non sequitur because its an opportunity for you to question my salvation.

But you're the one who made it an issue. You're the one using language that demonstrates a false understanding of salvation.

I have submitted to Christ his lordship.

But the Bible says that even the Devil and his angels will submit to Christ's Lordship. Are they saved?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

So how do you resolve that you still have an incomplete christ like mind when you die?

What is there to resolve? The Bible says that putting on the mind of Christ is a long process.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But you're the one who made it an issue. You're the one using language that demonstrates a false understanding of salvation.



But the Bible says that even the Devil and his angels will submit to Christ's Lordship. Are they saved?

And my point is proven.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What is there to resolve? The Bible says that putting on the mind of Christ is a long process.

Thats exaclty it. So the Catholic look at purgatory as part of that process and when its complete you enter heaven.