Let's discuss purgatory

[DHK]

Thats exaclty it. So the Catholic look at purgatory as part of that process and when its complete you enter heaven.

As I posted elsewhere, Purgatory denies that Christ died for our sins.
It denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.
It makes the death of Christ of none effect.
It makes us responsible to pay for our own sins rather than Christ paying the penalty.
It makes the grace of God by the work of Christ, into the works of men.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Thats exaclty it. So the Catholic look at purgatory as part of that process and when its complete you enter heaven.

But so what? Having the mind of Christ is a part of our sanctification, not our justification.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

So how do you resolve that you still have an incomplete christ like mind when you die?

I am simply answering the questions, but if you would like me to accompany my answers with Scripture I would be glad to.

First, I am justified by God on the basis of Christ's righteousness and obedience. His perfection is accounted to me.

As a result of God's work to me, He is doing a work in me to conform me to the image of His Son. Since I do not believe the Bible teaches total perfection in this life, I expect that I will always be growing (or takign steps backwards :laugh: ) until the day I die.

When I do die, it has not yet appeared exactly what I will be, but I do know that I will be just like Him because I will see Him as He is. But now we are the children of God.

So, to whatever degree I have conformed to the image of Christ between now and the day of my departure, it does not have any bearing on God's acceptance of my person into heaven. That is based on the finished work, perfection, and obedience of Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Where does any Catholic teaching state this?

In the Catholic Catachism.

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I am simply answering the questions, but if you would like me to accompany my answers with Scripture I would be glad to.

First, I am justified by God on the basis of Christ's righteousness and obedience. His perfection is accounted to me.

As a result of God's work to me, He is doing a work in me to conform me to the image of His Son. Since I do not believe the Bible teaches total perfection in this life, I expect that I will always be growing (or takign steps backwards :laugh: ) until the day I die.

When I do die, it has not yet appeared exactly what I will be, but I do know that I will be just like Him because I will see Him as He is. But now we are the children of God.

So, to whatever degree I have conformed to the image of Christ between now and the day of my departure, it does not have any bearing on God's acceptance of my person into heaven. That is based on the finished work, perfection, and obedience of Christ.

That is actually a good answer. But note I'm putting foreward the actual Catholic belief about this issue rather than what has been said of it by someone else. Which is my point in talking about it to begin with. Often there is no meeting of the minds because deffinitions are comparable. Once you talking about the same thing you are better able to refute something.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

In the Catholic Catachism.

First of all, what you quoted says nothing at all about having the mind of Christ.

Second, as I said before, having the mind of Christ is a part of our sanctification, not our justification.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

First of all, what you quoted says nothing at all about having the mind of Christ.

Second, as I said before, having the mind of Christ is a part of our sanctification, not our justification.

From the perspective of the Catholic faith they cannot be one without the other. Just like salvation is inclusive with Theosis for the Catholic.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

From the perspective of the Catholic faith they cannot be one without the other. Just like salvation is inclusive with Theosis for the Catholic.

Actually, I think that is mistaken. From a biblical perspective there can't be one without the other. Whomever God justifies, He also sanctifies and glorifies.

What the papal teaching does is blur and mix sanctification and justification. They make justification as much as a process as sanctification.

 

[billwald]

>To make the statement like that website said, is to say that the blood of Christ which was offered and accepted by God the Father, did not fully expiate the sins of those for whom it was shed.

The catch is "for whom." Jesus died for the sins of every person ever born and who will be born.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

>To make the statement like that website said, is to say that the blood of Christ which was offered and accepted by God the Father, did not fully expiate the sins of those for whom it was shed.

The catch is "for whom." Jesus died for the sins of every person ever born and who will be born.

No, actually that would take this discussion into a different direction regarding the extent of the atonement, and would create an Arminian/Calvinist debate, which on this subject is not necessary.

 

[Zenas]

There is also absolutely NO scriptural basis for the teaching of Purgatory.

Let's just say there is no express teaching of purgatory in scripture. However purgatory is implied in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.

12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

It is also implied in 2 Maccabees 12:39-46.

39
On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.
40
But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.
41
They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.
42
7 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Let's just say there is no express teaching of purgatory in scripture. However purgatory is implied in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.

Actually, that's referring to the Bema Seat Judgement, not to the heretical doctrine of Purgatory.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually, that's referring to the Bema Seat Judgement, not to the heretical doctrine of Purgatory.

I never heard of Bema Seat Judgement. What's Bema?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I never heard of Bema Seat Judgement. What's Bema?

It's where Christ will judge believers' works and reward them accordingly.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It's where Christ will judge believers' works and reward them accordingly.

Why Bema? Doesn't that all occure at the great white throne judgement?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Why Bema?

he meant "Bama"...as in Roll TIDE!!!!

In XC
-

 

[lori4dogs]

he meant "Bama"...as in Roll TIDE!!!!

In XC
-

Hook 'em, Horns!

 

[webdog]

I still have the propensity not in the same manner as before and my life has improved. But here is the thing. Isn't Christ finished work sufficient enough for me to be free from sin entirely? Why do I and others still struggle with sin?

Two words...sin nature. Until our natures are shed at death, we will still desire to sin. It is a constant war within between the flesh and Spirit. The penal penalty of sin has been paid in full, however, and we are given a nature that has the power over the old.

 

[webdog]

Why Bema? Doesn't that all occure at the great white throne judgement?

Ask God, He makes the rules

 

[Amy.G]

Let's just say there is no express teaching of purgatory in scripture. However purgatory is implied in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.
It is also implied in 2 Maccabees 12:39-46.

1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


What is it that the believer loses? His salvation? NO! He loses rewards that he would have received had he been serving the Lord as he should have been. But he will be saved.


Maccabees is not scripture, so there is no need to go there.