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Let's discuss purgatory
- Thread starter Amy.G
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I agree. One doesn't have to be burned to suffer loss...I watch Let's Make A Deal, and people suffer losses all the time when they could have taken the banker's offer in the mid 6 figures and instead greedily hold out for more and end up with $500. Ask them what it means to "suffer loss"
Oh, I don't think so. I went to a real school. No, I meant Bema, just like the Bible talks about.
No.
The Bible tells us that there are three judgements: the judgment of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-36), a judgment of believers’ works, often referred to as the “judgment seat [bema] of Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:10), and the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the millennium (Revelation 20:11-15).
The Great White Throne Judgement is where the wicked are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire.
I'm not a resident Catholic apologist but I will give you something else, although you will reject it just like you rejected the other two passages I submitted. It has been my observation that no matter what a person's beliefs may be, he will accept scripture at face value if he agrees with it. If he doesn't agree with it, he will offer another explanation of the passage that conforms to his beliefs. So here goes:
These words of Christ imply there may be forgiveness in the age to come. Since there is no sin in Heaven, it doesn't apply to people who go there. We all believe there is no getting out of Hell once you go there, so it can't apply to Hell either. That only leaves one other possibility--Purgatory.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
That is one heck of a stretch Zenas. I don't think I have ever seen someone stretch a Bible verse that far...lol
That is only a possibility if one twists scripture like a pretzel.
This verse makes it clear there is no forgiveness offered after one's death.
Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
What is purgatory like? Is it like hell? Show me where the bible describes this place. Show where the bible says that once one is placed in purgatory he will ever get out. How long is he there? What is he doing?
Zenas said:
Only to a liberal does "shall not be forgiven" mean "may be forgiven".
Call me stupid, call me crazy, call me ugly, but please don't call me a liberal. :BangHead:
Now, let's look at this verse. Jesus was making it clear that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. However he could have simply said, "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him." He could have stopped right there. That is all that was necessary to get the point across but He went further by appending the words "either in this age or in the age to come."
One way of looking at this, probably the one favored by you, would be that Jesus was only being emphatic. Like me saying to my child, "No you can't have a pony, not now, not next year, not ever." However, by saying this, I am recognizing that I could give her something next year, just not a pony.
The other way of looking at this is that Jesus wouldn't have ruled out forgiveness for blasphemy in the age to come unless there actually could be forgiveness for other sins in the age to come.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Your stupid, crazy, and ugly. lol
Thanks(?) RB. Incidentally I preferred the Georgia flag, at least I think that's what it was.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
It was the GA flag. lol
Go to the passage and read it all--in context.
Jesus had just finished doing some great miracles which could only be attributed to the Holy Spirit.
The Pharisees attributed His works to Beelzebub ("Lord of the flies") or to Satan. They said that he casts out demons by Beelzebub. It was a great insult.
Jesus comeback was: Can a kingdom stand if it be divided against itself?
If I cast out demons by the power of Satan then by what power do you use? (my paraphrase)
Then Jesus rebuked them and charged them with the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
What happened? The Pharisees saw the miracles of Jesus. They were there in his very presence. They witnessed it. Then they had the audacity to accuse the very miracles that Jesus was performing, not to the power of the Holy Spirit, but rather to the power of Satan. This was blasphemy; blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to attribute the miraculous works of Jesus to the work of Satan. It cannot be committed today. It could have only been committed when Jesus was on this earth performing miracles in the flesh. They saw those miracles and attributed them to Satan's power. One cannot commit that sin today.
There is no sin today that God cannot forgive. The Lord emphasizes that; the Bible emphasizes that; the Bible does not contradict itself. He forgives all who come to Him. This was a one time event in the history of Christ while he was on earth.
Matthew 12:32 (King James Version)
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 12:32 (New International Version)
32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Matthew 12:32 (New American Standard Bible)
32"(A)Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in (B)this age or in the age to come.
Interesting. The Bible only knows of two ages, "this present evil age" and "the age to come." How many worlds are there? What is the difference between an age and a world? Doesn't "age" imply time line and "world," geography or planet?
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 12:32 (New International Version)
32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Matthew 12:32 (New American Standard Bible)
32"(A)Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in (B)this age or in the age to come.
Interesting. The Bible only knows of two ages, "this present evil age" and "the age to come." How many worlds are there? What is the difference between an age and a world? Doesn't "age" imply time line and "world," geography or planet?
Surely you are not referring to me. However, I will do my best to both explain purgatory and give you the scriptural references the Catholic Church uses to support the teaching in the morning. Gotta finish making tamales!
I want to chime in and say ANYONE who hopes in a second chance after death will be eternally disappointed. It's Heaven or Hell and if you need a testimony I suggest you read the story "deaths" of the rich man and Lazurus. Don't play Russian roulette with your soul........no Purgatory ...no third option.
Marcia
Active Member
Yes, it is sufficient and you will be free of sin eventually. First you are free of the penalty of sin (upon faith); then you are free of the power of sin (sanctification, or growing in Christ and being made more in the image of Christ but one is not free of sin); finally, after death, free from the presence of sin.
I explained this in response to Matt Black on another thread. It seems that many with Catholic or other backgrounds do not understand this. They confuse being declared righteous with actually being righteous, and being free from the penalty of sin with being free of sin.
Marcia
Active Member
Believers appear before the judgment throne of Christ; unbelievers only appear before the Great White Throne. They will have no covering of the blood of Christ.
Believers are judged for rewards (this is a big topic and I don't want to get into it here) which can be clearly shown from the Bible (I have done this on other threads - maybe you can do a search - but the threads were in the Baptist forums).
Purgatory has nothing to do with 'a second chance'. Where did you get that idea?
The following is taken from a seminar I attended and explains what purgatory is (from scripture) and gives some biblical references. There are quite a few more. The word purgatory is not used in scripture, but niether is 'trinity' or 'incarnation'.
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
And, as has been previously discussed on this thread:
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
And, as has been previously discussed on this thread:
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
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