Let's discuss purgatory

[JohnDeereFan]

You don't know that. The Bible doesn't say where this scene is.

Actually, we do know that it's in Heaven because it takes place after the first judgement, the Judgement of Nations (more commonly known as the Judgement of the Sheep and the Goats), and that judgement occurs after the bodily resurrection of the dead.

It speaks of fire and burning.

Actually, it only uses the metaphor of burning to describe the worthlessness of man's works, not punishing the righteous in literal fire.

If the good and bad deeds we take with us are burned, surely it will be pretty hot. Even straw makes a hot fire. John Deere called it the Bema judgment or something like that, and he says there are three judgments (see post 44). You say there are two. Which is it really? Or could it be that you are both wrong and the Great White Throne judgment will be to separate the saved from the unsaved so we all get to participate?

I honestly did not see DHK's post in which he referred to two judgements. However, I can say with confidence from reading his other posts, that he will affirm the three judgements I cited for you.

Remember, he didn't say that there are only two judgements and not three. He merely said that he is talking about two judgements as they relate to one another.

 

[DHK]

You don't know that. The Bible doesn't say where this scene is. You only infer it is in Heaven, yet you castigate me for infering it is Purgatory.

First, Purgatory is not found in the Bible--not the concept, not the word.
Second, where else would you find all believers gathered together to be judged for their works. The Bible says many times: "So then every one shall be judged according to their works." Warnings such as these are given to believers.
This is the Scripture which verifies that it is in heaven. It is the same event that Paul is speaking about:

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
--The judgement seat of Christ is before Christ in heaven as the name implies.
--It again says that we will be judged according to our works, or the things done in our body--the things that we do whether good or bad.

It speaks of fire and burning. If the good and bad deeds we take with us are burned, surely it will be pretty hot. Even straw makes a hot fire.

1 Corinthians 3:11-12 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
--The whole picture is one large metaphor meant to teach us something. If we are to interpret this passage as literal as you are trying to be then Jesus would be a concrete slab of cement, and our works would literally look like wood, hay,...gold, silver,...etc. being put on this concrete foundation.
It is a metaphor; not to be taken quite as literal as you are taking it to be.
Christ is not a slab of concrete or cement or even wood. Get a grip here.

John Deere called it the Bema judgment or something like that, and he says there are three judgments (see post 44). You say there are two. Which is it really? Or could it be that you are both wrong and the Great White Throne judgment will be to separate the saved from the unsaved so we all get to participate? Perhaps you are confused by the intervention of that pesky millenium. Oh No! What if the so called millenium turns out to actually be the church age and you are off by 1,000 years more or less.

One Judgment: The Bema Seat of Christ--just after the rapture, during the tribulation, and before the Second Coming. (for believers only)
Second Judgment: The Great White Throne Judgement--After the Millennial Kingdom is over--for unbelievers only; their final sentence into the lake of fire.
Third Judgment--The Judgment of the Sheep and Goats: just before the Millennial Kingdom--It is a judgment of the nations; as to which nations were friendly to the Jews and which were not friendly to the Jewish nation.
These are the three judgements spoken of.

I will go with you this far, that this passage speaks only of people who are going to Heaven. Those going to Hell will not experience this, whether it be speaking of Purgatory or of the judgment seat of Christ. However, these "works" are caught up with the individual. But for the presence of the person the works would not be there. When the works burn, their bearer feels the heat. You are also right that we see two sets of works. The gold, silver and precious stones are clearly good works. The wood, hay and stubble are bad works, both sincere and insincere.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and that is not in purgatory where Christ is not. It is not on earth either. It is in heaven where Christ sits on his throne.
The picture is of works being burned. That picture is of works being lost. It is also a picture of reward being lost. Compare that to the Book of Revelation which gives the same warning in different words: Beware lest any man lose their reward. It doesn't speak of heat. This is a picture. There is no man burning up here. Christ is not a slab of concrete either. You can't take it that literally. You must draw the conclusions that Paul is teaching.

 

[DHK]

Removed, burned up, whatever. They are gone. You're right about the people. They are not lost, they are being purified and going to Heaven.

Where in the passage does it say believers are being purified? Why must you read Roman Catholic doctrine into this passage when there isn't any?
Their works will be manifest, or declared openly. It doesn't say that they will be punished in flames. That is not so.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Matt Black]

Does this have anything to do with our salvation?

No.

Or does this have to do with our live here on earth before we're with Christ?

Yes, but my question remains: what if in our lives here on earth we are not fully transformed - how is that transformation then effected? RB mentioned 'glorification' at death and I've asked him to unpack this a bit more - so far he hasn't.

 

[annsni]

No. Yes, but my question remains: what if in our lives here on earth we are not fully transformed - how is that transformation then effected? RB mentioned 'glorification' at death and I've asked him to unpack this a bit more - so far he hasn't.

Can you show me a verse that says that we will be fully transformed - as in perfect - here on earth? That we will never sin again, that we fully have the mind of Christ and no longer are affected by sin and suffering in this world? In other words, that we will be like Jesus Christ after His resurrection??

 

[Matt Black]

Oooh, an easy one! Try Matt 5:48, Heb 10:14, 12:23, to name but three.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Oooh, an easy one! Try Matt 5:48, Heb 10:14, 12:23, to name but three.

Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Comment: Look at the Greek for perfect. This is not sinless perfection. Unless we take this to be justification.

Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Comment: This is speaking in past tense. How does this square with your theology? This is justification. Look at the context.

Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

Comment: Based on your quotes so far, it appears to me that all your doing is applying your theology of blended justification and sanctification. No man on earth is without sin. If this is speaking about men alive on earth (and I think it is) it is speaking of their justification, not their sanctification.

Your Hebrews references must be taken in the context in which they were placed, both immediate and broad. And I know you will agree. The book of Hebrews, in the main, is the about the superiorty and supremecy of sacrifice and redemption of Christ Jesus over the Old Covenant. These Scriptures you are referencing speak to that.

As one commentator put it, and I like it: "... by his sacrifice, has perfected, and has perfectly fulfilled the law for them; he has perfectly expiated their sins; he has obtained the full pardon of all their sins, and complete redemption; he has perfectly justified them from all things, and that for ever..."

 

[annsni]

Matt 5:48

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

So, you're saying that this verse tells us to be perfect as in completely sinless? In the context, that is not what it is saying, is it? It's saying to respond to others in a Godly way - in the way that the Father would. Apparently some in this thread have already fallen when it comes to this verse.


Heb 10:14:

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

"Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"

When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
"This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,"

then he adds,

"I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."

Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.


I don't see anything in this passage that says we are sinless and perfect in this life. Verse 14 tells us that we are perfected - that we have been made complete in Christ yet it then tells us that we are BEING sanctified, which means being purified. Why would we need to be purified if we are perfect in this life? We know through the whole of Scripture that we are still sinful in this life but we are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another (2 Cor. 3:18). If we are sinless, why does Paul tell us to flee from immorality? To now yield to righeousness? To press on towards the goal? That our new nature is being renewed in knowledge after the image of it's creator? To strive for holiness? In fact, the vast majority of the New Testament is instruction on how to live in holiness. If we are sinless and perfect, why would we need this instruction?



Hebrews 12:23

For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned." Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I tremble with fear." But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Is this speaking of heaven or earth?

 

[Marcia]

Not all the works will be burned up, only the wood, hay and straw, i.e., the bad works. The good works will come through the fire and for those there will be a reward. However, the bad works are not allowed to accompany a person into Heaven. They are removed in Purgatory.

I think DHK and maybe others have addressed this.

Are you a Baptist who believes in or desires to defend purgatory? If so, you are the first one I met that does so. Are you considering becoming Roman Catholic?

 

[Zenas]

I think DHK and maybe others have addressed this.

Are you a Baptist who believes in or desires to defend purgatory? If so, you are the first one I met that does so. Are you considering becoming Roman Catholic?

I don’t know whether there is a Purgatory or not but from my perspective it is something that is eminently defensible. From your perspective it is impossible to defend and even if you could defend Purgatory it would serve no purpose. Let me explain.

One of your most closely held beliefs is eternal security. A corollary to eternal security is the belief that when you are saved all sins are forgiven—past, present and future. I’m sure there are some who believe in eternal security but not in forgiveness of all sins for all time, but there aren’t many. If you believe this, you are convinced that one who is saved cannot die with unforgiven sin. JDF, Amy, DHK and others have argued on this thread that for the saved person death is the doorway to instant glorification. Therefore, Purgatory has no use. There would be no one to go there. Since it is completely useless, it becomes difficult if not impossible draw the inference that certain scripture passages support its existence.

I have always believed eternal security is a false doctrine. Neither of the two Baptist churches where I have served the entire 64 years of my life ever paid much attention to doctrine, so I didn’t understand until relatively recently how tenaciously Baptists cling to the doctrine of eternal security. But that is off topic. If you believe it is possible to fall from grace, then you cannot believe that all sins are forgiven for all time when you are saved. Instead, when you are saved you are given a clean slate that can and does get dirty with future sin. These sins can be forgiven but if you die with unforgiven sin you cannot gain entry into Heaven. Therefore, a place where these unforgiven sins can be purged so you can enter Heaven pure and clean (Purgatory) makes perfectly good sense.

At this point you may ask, “If Purgatory purges us of all unforgiven sins, doesn’t this mean all Christians eventually go to Heaven?” This would make eternal security a reality. The Bible doesn’t teach eternal security of the believer, so there must be other doctrines at work here. One possibility is the Catholic concept of mortal sin and venial sin, which I find makes eminently good sense and also finds support in scripture. Under this concept, one who dies with unforgiven mortal sin goes straight to Hell, and Purgatory is only for purifying a person of venial sins.

Due to time constraints, I have done this rather fast and have not quoted any scripture, although there is scriptural support for every thing I have said. I realize there is also scriptural support for your beloved doctrine of eternal security but the overriding theme of the New Testament is that doers of evil deeds do not go to Heaven, and all of us do evil deeds now and then. Hopefully rarely.

So, Marcia, I’m not really a champion of the doctrine of Purgatory but I can make a good case for it. I can also make a case against it but it is somewhat weak without also making a case for eternal security of the believer. In any event, whether you do or don’t believe in it will not affect your eternal destiny. That is determined by whether Jesus Christ is the Lord of our lives.

As for your question, “Are you considering becoming Roman Catholic?”, it is more like I sometimes wonder why I have remained a Baptist all these years. I love my local church and the people in it. They are like family. But the fact remains that I don’t believe in eternal security, I do believe in baptismal regeneration and I do believe in a top down rather than a congregational form of church governance. Since Catholics hold all these beliefs, and since they have been around longer than any other group, it is only natural that I would be looking at them very carefully.

 

[Marcia]

I don’t know whether there is a Purgatory or not but from my perspective it is something that is eminently defensible. From your perspective it is impossible to defend and even if you could defend Purgatory it would serve no purpose. Let me explain.

One of your most closely held beliefs is eternal security. .

How do you know?

A corollary to eternal security is the belief that when you are saved all sins are forgiven—past, present and future. I’m sure there are some who believe in eternal security but not in forgiveness of all sins for all time, but there aren’t many. If you believe this, you are convinced that one who is saved cannot die with unforgiven sin. JDF, Amy, DHK and others have argued on this thread that for the saved person death is the doorway to instant glorification. Therefore, Purgatory has no use. There would be no one to go there. Since it is completely useless, it becomes difficult if not impossible draw the inference that certain scripture passages support its existence.

Actually, the main refutations of Purgatory are that it is not taught in scripture and that it undermines the atonement of Christ, when he said "It is finished."

I have always believed eternal security is a false doctrine. Neither of the two Baptist churches where I have served the entire 64 years of my life ever paid much attention to doctrine, so I didn’t understand until relatively recently how tenaciously Baptists cling to the doctrine of eternal security. But that is off topic. If you believe it is possible to fall from grace, then you cannot believe that all sins are forgiven for all time when you are saved. Instead, when you are saved you are given a clean slate that can and does get dirty with future sin. These sins can be forgiven but if you die with unforgiven sin you cannot gain entry into Heaven. Therefore, a place where these unforgiven sins can be purged so you can enter Heaven pure and clean (Purgatory) makes perfectly good sense.

The idea that you can die unforgiven even though you trusted Christ would mean
1. Jesus' atonement was insufficient
2.When you trusted Christ, you were not forgiven of all sins
3. The penalty was not paid for sins
4. You have to do something, or something additional to the suffering and death on the cross must be done so that you can enter heaven.

The above points totally undermine and imo, go against, the Bible's teaching on what the atonement was.

Otherwise, the gospel would be: you have eternal life if you trust in Christ and are purged after death.

At this point you may ask, “If Purgatory purges us of all unforgiven sins, doesn’t this mean all Christians eventually go to Heaven?” This would make eternal security a reality. The Bible doesn’t teach eternal security of the believer, so there must be other doctrines at work here. One possibility is the Catholic concept of mortal sin and venial sin, which I find makes eminently good sense and also finds support in scripture. Under this concept, one who dies with unforgiven mortal sin goes straight to Hell, and Purgatory is only for purifying a person of venial sins.

I do not think there is biblical support for the above.

Due to time constraints, I have done this rather fast and have not quoted any scripture, although there is scriptural support for every thing I have said. I realize there is also scriptural support for your beloved doctrine of eternal security but the overriding theme of the New Testament is that doers of evil deeds do not go to Heaven, and all of us do evil deeds now and then. Hopefully rarely.

"Beloved doctrine?" That's clearly supposed to be sarcastic and a slight.

Doers of evil deeds and the wicked are the unrepentant in the Bible. You are equating the unrepentant and those who reject Christ with those who have trusted in Christ.

But the fact remains that I don’t believe in eternal security, I do believe in baptismal regeneration and I do believe in a top down rather than a congregational form of church governance. Since Catholics hold all these beliefs, and since they have been around longer than any other group, it is only natural that I would be looking at them very carefully

It certainly does not sound like you hold to Baptist beliefs, especially with the baptismal regeneration and needing more forgiveness/purging in order to get into heaven. I hope you are not a SS teacher in your church. I say that seriously.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Since Catholics hold all these beliefs, and since they have been around longer than any other group, it is only natural that I would be looking at them very carefully.

Orthodoxy! Orthodoxy! Don't forget the Orthodox Church!

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I hoe you are not a SS teacher in your church. I say that seriously.

I hope he is...

In XC
-

 

[annsni]

I hope he is...

In XC
-

You hope that someone who has beliefs that are against what his church teaches is a Sunday school teacher so that he can teach against the church??

 

[lori4dogs]

I don’t know whether there is a Purgatory or not but from my perspective it is something that is eminently defensible. From your perspective it is impossible to defend and even if you could defend Purgatory it would serve no purpose. Let me explain.

One of your most closely held beliefs is eternal security. A corollary to eternal security is the belief that when you are saved all sins are forgiven—past, present and future. I’m sure there are some who believe in eternal security but not in forgiveness of all sins for all time, but there aren’t many. If you believe this, you are convinced that one who is saved cannot die with unforgiven sin. JDF, Amy, DHK and others have argued on this thread that for the saved person death is the doorway to instant glorification. Therefore, Purgatory has no use. There would be no one to go there. Since it is completely useless, it becomes difficult if not impossible draw the inference that certain scripture passages support its existence.

I have always believed eternal security is a false doctrine. Neither of the two Baptist churches where I have served the entire 64 years of my life ever paid much attention to doctrine, so I didn’t understand until relatively recently how tenaciously Baptists cling to the doctrine of eternal security. But that is off topic. If you believe it is possible to fall from grace, then you cannot believe that all sins are forgiven for all time when you are saved. Instead, when you are saved you are given a clean slate that can and does get dirty with future sin. These sins can be forgiven but if you die with unforgiven sin you cannot gain entry into Heaven. Therefore, a place where these unforgiven sins can be purged so you can enter Heaven pure and clean (Purgatory) makes perfectly good sense.

At this point you may ask, “If Purgatory purges us of all unforgiven sins, doesn’t this mean all Christians eventually go to Heaven?” This would make eternal security a reality. The Bible doesn’t teach eternal security of the believer, so there must be other doctrines at work here. One possibility is the Catholic concept of mortal sin and venial sin, which I find makes eminently good sense and also finds support in scripture. Under this concept, one who dies with unforgiven mortal sin goes straight to Hell, and Purgatory is only for purifying a person of venial sins.

Due to time constraints, I have done this rather fast and have not quoted any scripture, although there is scriptural support for every thing I have said. I realize there is also scriptural support for your beloved doctrine of eternal security but the overriding theme of the New Testament is that doers of evil deeds do not go to Heaven, and all of us do evil deeds now and then. Hopefully rarely.

So, Marcia, I’m not really a champion of the doctrine of Purgatory but I can make a good case for it. I can also make a case against it but it is somewhat weak without also making a case for eternal security of the believer. In any event, whether you do or don’t believe in it will not affect your eternal destiny. That is determined by whether Jesus Christ is the Lord of our lives.

As for your question, “Are you considering becoming Roman Catholic?”, it is more like I sometimes wonder why I have remained a Baptist all these years. I love my local church and the people in it. They are like family. But the fact remains that I don’t believe in eternal security, I do believe in baptismal regeneration and I do believe in a top down rather than a congregational form of church governance. Since Catholics hold all these beliefs, and since they have been around longer than any other group, it is only natural that I would be looking at them very carefully.

My sister and I have had a similar journey. My sister was a Baptist missionary in Mexico for a long time before becoming Catholic. It took me a few years longer as my Baptist church was like a family.

Both of us love our local Baptist church and both of us have life time prayer partners there.

The Lord bless you where ever you wind up.

 

[Zenas]

How do you know?

Because your posts always express Baptist doctrine and that is a very big point of Baptist doctrine. I notice you don’t try to deny it.

Actually, the main refutations of Purgatory are that it is not taught in scripture and that it undermines the atonement of Christ, when he said "It is finished."

In the first post I made on this tread I said Purgatory is not expressly taught in scripture. However, it does not undermine the atonement of Christ. It only shows that those in Purgatory did not fully avail themselves of the gift of grace made available through this atonement.

The idea that you can die unforgiven even though you trusted Christ would mean
1. Jesus' atonement was insufficient

Doesn’t mean that.

2.When you trusted Christ, you were not forgiven of all sins

Bingo! When you trusted Christ, you were only forgiven of sins you had already committed.

3. The penalty was not paid for sins

Doesn’t mean that.

4. You have to do something, or something additional to the suffering and death on the cross must be done so that you can enter heaven.

Well, yes. I submit you must be baptized. I know you disagree but even you would say you have to believe. That is doing something additional.

I do not think there is biblical support for the above [recognizing venial and mortal sins].

1 John 5:16-17, and I know you will say “leads to death” refers to physical death not spiritual death. You’re entitled to your opinion, and that’s all it is, but don’t deny me the right to be entitled to mine as well.

"Beloved doctrine?" That's clearly supposed to be sarcastic and a slight.

No, I’m very good at sarcasm but that isn’t it. I’m being totally serious and certainly didn’t mean to be disrespectful. If you took it as a slight I apologize.

Doers of evil deeds and the wicked are the unrepentant in the Bible. You are equating the unrepentant and those who reject Christ with those who have trusted in Christ.

Are you saved? I think your answer is yes. Have you ever done an evil deed since you were saved? I know I certainly have and I’m certainly not unrepentant.

 

[Zenas]

It certainly does not sound like you hold to Baptist beliefs, especially with the baptismal regeneration and needing more forgiveness/purging in order to get into heaven. I hope you are not a SS teacher in your church. I say that seriously.

I’ve been a regular SS teacher for about 26 years, except for one year in which I took a “sabbatical.” My class is well attended and no one has ever complained. We have some spirited discussions.

 

[Marcia]

Because your posts always express Baptist doctrine and that is a very big point of Baptist doctrine. I notice you don’t try to deny it.

I do believe in eternal security but wondered how you could be so sure. Some Baptists do not (at least here on the BB).

In the first post I made on this tread I said Purgatory is not expressly taught in scripture. However, it does not undermine the atonement of Christ. It only shows that those in Purgatory did not fully avail themselves of the gift of grace made available through this atonement.

How does it show that? One avails him/herself of the gift of grace by believing in Christ.

Doesn’t mean that. Bingo! When you trusted Christ, you were only forgiven of sins you had already committed.

So does this mean no Christian goes to heaven after death? Or only those who are able to ask forgiveness with their dying breath?

Well, yes. I submit you must be baptized. I know you disagree but even you would say you have to believe. That is doing something additional.

Exactly. That does say Christ's death was not sufficient.

1 John 5:16-17, and I know you will say “leads to death” refers to physical death not spiritual death. You’re entitled to your opinion, and that’s all it is, but don’t deny me the right to be entitled to mine as well.

How can I deny you your right to an opinion? This is a discussion/debate forum.

There is strong biblical support for it meaning leading to physical death, such as the references to those who abused the Lord's Supper and therefore now "sleep," and the deaths of Aninias and Sapphira.

Are you saved? I think your answer is yes. Have you ever done an evil deed since you were saved? I know I certainly have and I’m certainly not unrepentant.

Of course I have sinned since I was saved. But I am forgiven and I ask for forgiveness when I know I need it. I even ask for forgiveness for things I may have done and did not know about. Christ's blood has covered my sins. I cannot outsin the blood of Christ or the grace of God; you think you can because since you need to be purged, Christ's blood was not enough to cover you. If you think about it, that puts more of the focus on you than on Christ. It means you can do things that faith in Christ was insufficient to forgive.

You're saying that those who commit evil deeds and Christians who go to purgatory are the same. Those who commit evil deeds and are outside the city in Revelation are unrepentant; they will go to the lake of fire.

 

[Zenas]

Orthodoxy! Orthodoxy! Don't forget the Orthodox Church!

In XC
-

I didn't say Roman Catholic. The last time I checked Orthodoxy is also Catholic.

 

[Marcia]

I’ve been a regular SS teacher for about 26 years, except for one year in which I took a “sabbatical.” My class is well attended and no one has ever complained. We have some spirited discussions.

Is the church/pastors aware of your beliefs in baptismal regeneration and sympathy toward purgatory? Did you sign a doctrinal statement? If so, are you not violating it if you believe in baptismal regeneration?

If my pastors knew you had those views, you would not be able to teach Sunday School at my church.