Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Peter said
So have you repented and have you been baptized and have you received the gift of the Holy Spirit?
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Let's have a Testimony!
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
Peter said
I did those things, but not in the same order. I thought we had to be born again?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
absolutely. Jesus said you must be born of water (baptized) and born of the Spirit. If you have been baptized and recieved the holy spirit you are born again. Referrence John 3.
One time I was taught (as a Baptist) that the water in John 3 referred to the amniotic fluid of child-birth. Another time I was taught that "water" could be referring to the inward work of the Holy Spirit by His Word, cleansing the soul, rather than the rite of baptism.
What I notice is that after Jesus gives this teaching his disciples go out baptising in John 4.
What I notice is that after Jesus gives this teaching his disciples go out baptising in John 4.
Why would they say it was amniotic fluid and not the water from baptism? I don't get it?
Oh good, thanks!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Isn't that interesting. Also what does Mark say of John the Baptist in Mark 1?
This is what I was told "when you are born there is amniotic fluid (born of water) and then when you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior you are born of the Spirit" (born again). I have always felt this explanation was far fetched. Here is why:
This idea is missing from the Early Church Fathers writings... and this one is the big one for me. I don't just dismiss everything the Early Church Fathers wrote because of some that held to heretical views on some things.
Are there any other places within scripture where born of water explicitly means born of womb?
Was this taught prior to the reformation. Was it taught by the earliest reformers?
But baptists use water baptism, so why the need to make up weird things like amniotic fluid baptism?
Because if that water in John 3 refers to baptism, then baptism would be part of being 'born again'. It MUST mean something else.
To Baptists, baptism is a symbol (an ordinance, not sacrament) only and has nothing to do with being 'born again'.
Oh I get it. John 3 doesn't specifically say baptized in water, it says born of water.
(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
What does this verse mean?
1. Peter was preaching on the Day of Pentecost.
2. Those who were there were Jews, many of them the very Jews that had crucified Christ. This was an historic time with an elite crowd. It would never again happen in history. These factors must always be taken into consideration in "hermeneutics" that is the interpretation of Scripture.
Repentance was very necessary. They had just killed Christ. Many of them were murderers with the blood of Christ on their hands. Without repentance there is no salvation. Repentance for these Jews was a direct acknowledgement that the Christ they murdered was now their Messiah, their Lord. It was more than just a general repentance from all your sins (a concept not found in the NT). This was a specific repentance to murdering Christ. It was a specific reference to making Christ as Lord instead of considering him as a criminal.
Once they could do that they would be able to be baptized. Baptism always follows salvation, and is never part of it.
"for the remission of sins." This prepositon "for" is the Greek word "eis." It has many meanings. Let's see how it is used in Matthew in connection with John the Baptist.
(Mat 3:11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
The word "unto" is the same word "eis".
John castigated the Pharisees, saying "Bring forth fruits unto repentance.
He would not baptize them unless he saw the fruit of repentance. Repentance came first. John had to see the works, the fruit of that repentance, and only then would he baptize them. That is what is meant here "unto" or "on the basis of" repentance, "because of" repentance.
And so it is in Acts 2:38. "Be baptized "on the basis of" or "because of" "your sins having been remitted." Peter would never baptize anyone whose sins were not already remitted. Would Peter baptize a murderer who had not repented of murdering Christ? Of course not! So the verse does not mean what it appears to mean with a quick cursory reading. One must dig a bit further looking at the Greek meaning of the prepositions being used. One should look at the context, the people to whom Peter was preaching to. Only then do you find out the meaning of the verse.
Jesus said you must be born of water and of the Spirit.
It says nothing of baptism in the entire passage.
Ye must be born of water and of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is definitely mentioned.
Some people do believe that the water surrounding the infant corresponds to the physical birth. It is a plausible explanation. However, I too do not believe it is the best explanation.
The question is: What does "water" represent?
Does it represent "amniotic fluid"? probably not.
Does it represent "baptism"? Definitely not! That would be the heresy of baptismal regeneration, a doctrine not taught in the Bible, but taught against. For salvation is all of God, not of man.
(Joh 3:6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(Joh 3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
There are two kinds of birth; one is of the flesh--that is how we all got into the world; one is of the Spirit. That is why Jesus said in verse 7 "You must be born again; you must be born of the Spirit.
Everyone is born of the flesh; but not everyone is born of the Spirit.
(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
What then does "the water mean" in this verse?
--not baptism.
Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews, a Rabbi. He knew the OT well. He had often been to the Temple. In fact this conversation may have taken place in sight of the Temple where they could see ceremonial washings take place.
--What is the most common use of water?
Water is commonly used for washing. The Jews used it often for washing. They had many, many ceremonial washings as is demonstrated by the Temple washings alone. Knowing the OT Scriptures well perhaps Psalm 119:9 would have come to Nicodemus' mind:
"Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to they word.
What did Jesus say?
(Joh 15:3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--Water is a symbol of the Word. Note that there are only two agents by which a person is born again: water and the Spirit. Water is a cleansing agent, represented by the Word which cleanses our soul, as Jesus says.
What does James say:
(Jas 1:18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--Here it becomes more clear. The word "begat" is another word for "born"
We are born or born again with the word of truth or the Word of God.
What does Peter say:
(1Pe 1:23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--It is very clear here.
We are born again by the Word of God.
Now remember there are only two agents by which a person is born again:
One is water and the other is the Holy Spirit.
The Bible makes it clear that water represents the Word of God.
One cannot be saved without the Word of God, that is the message of the Gospel; nor can he be saved without the Holy Spirit of God. It is the Holy Spirit working through the Word of God that brings a person to Christ. That is how a person is born again. He puts his faith in the finished work of Christ, believes on Him who died for him and receives him as his Savior.
(Joh 1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--When one becomes born again they become a son of God or a child of God.
(Joh 3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
There are two kinds of birth; one is of the flesh--that is how we all got into the world; one is of the Spirit. That is why Jesus said in verse 7 "You must be born again; you must be born of the Spirit.
Everyone is born of the flesh; but not everyone is born of the Spirit.
(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
What then does "the water mean" in this verse?
--not baptism.
Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews, a Rabbi. He knew the OT well. He had often been to the Temple. In fact this conversation may have taken place in sight of the Temple where they could see ceremonial washings take place.
--What is the most common use of water?
Water is commonly used for washing. The Jews used it often for washing. They had many, many ceremonial washings as is demonstrated by the Temple washings alone. Knowing the OT Scriptures well perhaps Psalm 119:9 would have come to Nicodemus' mind:
"Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to they word.
What did Jesus say?
(Joh 15:3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--Water is a symbol of the Word. Note that there are only two agents by which a person is born again: water and the Spirit. Water is a cleansing agent, represented by the Word which cleanses our soul, as Jesus says.
What does James say:
(Jas 1:18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--Here it becomes more clear. The word "begat" is another word for "born"
We are born or born again with the word of truth or the Word of God.
What does Peter say:
(1Pe 1:23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--It is very clear here.
We are born again by the Word of God.
Now remember there are only two agents by which a person is born again:
One is water and the other is the Holy Spirit.
The Bible makes it clear that water represents the Word of God.
One cannot be saved without the Word of God, that is the message of the Gospel; nor can he be saved without the Holy Spirit of God. It is the Holy Spirit working through the Word of God that brings a person to Christ. That is how a person is born again. He puts his faith in the finished work of Christ, believes on Him who died for him and receives him as his Savior.
(Joh 1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--When one becomes born again they become a son of God or a child of God.
I see, sarcasism, very well. I miss read your intentions here. I thought you were looking for a meaningful conversation. :wavey:
Just keeping the OP fresh! Still waiting for that testimony........:smilewinkgrin: