You don't have to be Reformed to believe in the doctrine of man's Total Inability. It's found throughout Scripture. For instance; Rom 3:11; 1 Cor 2:14; etc. etc.
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Let's suppose Calvinism is true...then why don't all Christians believe it?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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You don't have to be Reformed to believe in the doctrine of man's Total Inability. It's found throughout Scripture. For instance; Rom 3:11; 1 Cor 2:14; etc. etc.
Actually you do. That is what the doctrine teaches. None of those passages states man is unable to accept God's drawing, in fact there are many others that prove just that.
And yet just another trip around the bush.
---How did God decide who to "regenerate" and who to not "regenerate"?????
---Oh, by an eternal degree made before the foundation of the world....
---Then did not God sentence those to hell that He "decided" not to regenerate?
---You are putting words in my mouth!!!!!
Sometimes it is stated that all this took place before the foundation of the world; but how could that be if Adam was different and Adam was from the foundation of the world?
Are you saying Adam had freewill but not the knowledge of good and evil but then Adam lost his freewill while gaining the knowledge of good and evil but could not do anything with the knowledge he had just acquired?
Is the robot in the cage or outside the cage? Or was he first outside the cage and then put back in?
So you're saying that a nonReformed person can't believe in the doctrine of Total Inability. Seems odd to me that I'm not Reformed and I believe it.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I will attempt to add a few very short and basic comments to your questions and let you decide for yourself whether or not they have any merit.
He's omniscient, and has infinite wisdom, and He doesn't make any mistakes.
I believe He decreed that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
In my view God doesn't send people to hell, people send themselves there.
I don't even recall responding to you before now.
What matters is God is omniscient and righteous in all He does.
In his original created state, I would say that must be true
Adam could do many things after he gained the knowledge of good and evil, but I personally don't believe he could find his way back to God unless God assisted him.
My guess would be .... In, then out, then back in at some point.
Just a reminder, my answers were kept very brief on purpose. We will see how this discussion evolves before I go into further detail.
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He's omniscient, and has infinite wisdom, and He doesn't make any mistakes.
I believe He decreed that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
In my view God doesn't send people to hell, people send themselves there.
I don't even recall responding to you before now.
What matters is God is omniscient and righteous in all He does.
In his original created state, I would say that must be true
Adam could do many things after he gained the knowledge of good and evil, but I personally don't believe he could find his way back to God unless God assisted him.
My guess would be .... In, then out, then back in at some point.
Just a reminder, my answers were kept very brief on purpose. We will see how this discussion evolves before I go into further detail.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Theopolis, I agree that man is born sinful and will not seek God on his own. I also agree that for man to understand the meat (the deep spiritual things of God) and not just the milk of the word it must be spiritually discerned, which is all the two passages you presented teach us.
Can you point to one text that teaches that the merciful act of God in sending us the Holy Spirit wrought Gospel truth through his church filled by Holy Spirit indwelled people is not sufficient to bring someone to faith?
The only people who can't see, hear, understand and repent are those who are judicially hardened by God. Read Acts 28:21-28.
Here is what i see ...
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV)
1 Cor 2:14 But a natural (unregenerate) man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (LITV)
The "natural man" in the above verse is in reference to unregenerate man.
From the above verse, what can we learn about this sort of person?
Firstly this verses says, that natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. Now in my view, the written word also being one of those things of the Spirit of God which the natural man doesn't receive.
Secondly, things of the Spirit of God are foolishness to this natiral, unregenerate man.
Thirdly, the verse says, this natural man cannot know the things of the Spirit of God. The words "cannot know" literally mean absolutely unable to know"
In other words, only the natural (regenerate) man can know the things of the Spirit of God.
What you fail to understand is that this 1 Cor 2:14 is not showing inability, it is showing a deliberate refusal to accept the things of God.
Notice it starts with the statement:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him"
Now stop right there and consider this first, because that is what the scripture is telling you first. Order is always very important in scripture. Now if you read the first chapter of 1 Corinthians you will see that Paul is primarily speaking of the Greeks. The Greeks were a people who believed in philosophy and sought natural explanations for all things, much like atheists and evolutionists do today.
To men like this, religion is simply superstition, it is foolishness to them. They will not listen to it because they think it nonsense. And because they do not believe it, they of course cannot receive the Spirit and fully understand it.
1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Read the first two chapters of 1st Corinthians and note how many times the word "foolish" or "foolishness" or "wisdom" is spoken of. You cannot take 1 Cor 2:14 out of this context to make it say something it does not.
Here is what a commentary says on the verse I showed above.
So, the reason the Greeks could not understand the scriptures is because they trusted in natural and intellectual explanations, whereas the Jews were spiritual. The gospel was not foolishness to the Jews, it was a stumblingblock.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I would add that if you look at the entire context you will see that Paul is addressing the "deep things of God" (vs 10) and is speaking to the "brethren" in the Corinth church who are also acting carnally because they too are not receiving these deep spiritual things...they are not moving from the milk to the meat.
I could focus on only the first half of the verse and draw the same conclusion as you, but I must continue reading on to find out why it is that they don't receive the things of God, and the second half tells us why that is. the reason they don't receive is because they absolutely cannot. "Absolutely cannot" is speaking of their Total Inability to receive the things of God. Seems quite simple to me when we consider the entire verse.
In context the "But" which begins verse 14 shows a change in transition. The verses previous to verse 14 are indeed referring to "us" and "we" who have received. Verse 14 is not referring to the "us" and "we" of the previous verses, but rather in reference to those who don't receive and who cannot understand.
Well, I think you misunderstand. Ask any atheist or evolutionist if they understand what a Christian means when they declare God created the world. They understand exactly what you are saying, they just don't believe it. Ask them if the understand what it means for Jesus to die for their sins and they will understand that also. Put it to the test and see for yourself.
The point is that they don't savingly believe Gospel truths -- they are not savingly in union with the Lord. They have no clue about the serious of their sins -- if they would even admit to their sins bearing that much significance to god.
Besides a great many non-Christians think that they are okay with God since Christ died for everyone in their view. That's another reason that that it is a distortion of the Scripture -- it gives people false confidence.They think :"Well, I'm covered. Christ died for everyone -- and I'm in that group of everyone. If He died for me then everything is okay.It doesn't matter that it doesn't affect my life."
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Let's look at the text brother:
But as it is written: What no eye has seen and no ear has heard, and what has never come into a man's heart, is what God has prepared for those who love Him. Now God has revealed them to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the concerns of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the concerns of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, in order to know what has been freely given to us by God. We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually. The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone. 16 For: who has known the Lord's mind, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh, as babies in Christ. I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were not yet able to receive it. In fact, you are still not able, because you are still fleshly. For since there is envy and strife among you, are you not fleshly and living like ordinary people?
Read through this text again and notice the distinction Paul makes between the natural/flesh people and the spiritual people.
Here is what we can conclude:
1. The Natural man cannot receive these things Paul is addressing
2. The Spiritual man can receive these things Paul is addressing
3. The BRETHREN (believers) are not being "spiritual" and cannot receive these things Paul is addressing
Thus, the "things" Paul is addressing here cannot be in reference to the simple gospel truth (milk) because the "brethren" (believers) cannot receive them.
agreed
I believe He said it when John first wrote it. And since God's word is as good as it gets, I suppose one could compare the whole Bible to a decree.
agreed
Sorry, I did not mean you. I was playing out a scenario of how the discussion usually goes.
I was only bouncing off your statement.
Again, sorry...
agreed
IMO the real question is on what basis did God decide to assist him.
If God chooses to "assist" some and not others, then in your personal view on what basis does God make the decision as to whom to "assist" and whom not the "assist"?
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Excellent point Skandelon and shows that Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers misuse and misinterpret 1 Cor 2:14, for these saved believers could not receive deeper spiritual teachings.
1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
These people were all saved, so obviously they could understand the gospel, yet they were not able to receive the deeper teachings (the meat) of God. Also notice in verse 1 he compares the babes in Christ to "carnal" unsaved men. So, their understanding was no better than an unsaved carnal man, yet they were able to understand the gospel and be saved.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Something to worry about isn't it!
Is it? What should I be worried about?
And thus Calvinism becomes a works based theology for it is said if you do not believe as I do, and if you do not act as I do; then you must be lost because if you were truly saved you would be just like me and I am special.
Once again, the cancer of Calvinism.
Once again, the cancer of Calvinism.
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