Let's Talk About "Drawing"

[psalms109:31]

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 5:25
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

When some believes that God loved the world that He sent His Son and that He does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth ;and that when He is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself. We do not believe all men will be drawn because of all the other scripture, but it isn't God who isn't willing but them.

It is their pride that keeps them away, not God.

To those who can't believe God loved the world and He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, just like the other camp you can't change what they have been convicted or convinced of, only God can we are just to plant the seed and let God do the work in their heart.

I do believe we must listen and learn from Jesus to come to Him, no matter how much we are drawn we will not come till we listen and learn. We are not drawn by the Father if you don't; and you will not come if the truth is hidden from you for the reason found in scripture. To follow a crowd does not mean you are drawn by the Father. The Father will simple not draw those who depend on their own understanding and not trust in the Lord but hide the truth from them. When Jesus is lifted up He is drawing all men to Himself, but only those who listen and learn will come.

 

[HankD]

Rather than derail a couple of other threads, I'd like to generate some discussion on two verses.

John 12:32 "...and I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me."

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day."

Questions for discussion:
1. Does "all men" mean all without exception? Or all kinds of men? Such as both Jews and Gentiles?
2. In 6:44, no one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn; those whom the Father draws come to Jesus, who will raise them up. This is clearly a picture of salvation.
3. If, then, all are drawn, and all who are drawn will come, and be raised up, how is this not universalism?
4. In the gospels, the Pharisees were clearly not drawn. They hated Jesus and plotted his death. Explain, please.
5. All have not heard the gospel, thus are not drawn. If one holds that "all" in 12:32 means "all without exception," why did Paul make three missionary journeys? If you hold that all have heard the gospel, please make your case.

Release the hounds!

I'll jump ahead of the posts, mainly because we have been down this road so many times.

One way of looking at this:

"drawing" does not necessarily imply salvation.

This is evident because they are drawn to Christ in order to be saved.

The Spirit reproves (convicts) the world of sin because they (citizens of the world) believe not on Christ.

In one arminian view, those who respond positively to the reproval and do not attempt to hide/make excuse/deny/ignore/etc their sin in the darkness, these are the ones who are chosen to receive special treatment from the Father, He gives them to Christ.


John 1

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

HankD

 

[Tom Butler]

While we're on the subject, let me throw in some questions:

What does it mean to be drawn?
What does it feel like?
Does it involve a change in our desires?
If so, what causes that change?
Is it a mental assent in some way?
Is it an emotional response?
Is it related to conviction of sin?

I have this image in my mind. I walk into the bakery and immediately my senses are assaulted with a sweet aroma of breaking bread. My reaction is, "ooh, that smells good. I want some."

Is this a good analogy? Thoughts?

 

[psalms109:31]

I see it as the young rich ruler. He wouldn't of come to Jesus if he wasn't drawn. When he found out he had to sell what he owned give to the poor and follow Jesus. He turned away and went by his own understanding. He obeyed the Law and even was blessed by God with riches. God has showed him mercy all his life. He can get to heaven without Jesus, because he was righteous, self-righteous that is.

 

[psalms109:31]

John 15:

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

1 John 2 :
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

Hebrews 3 :
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

 

[Winman]

Got it, thanks. I disagree with the analogy, but I still like it.

Well, you agree you can pull or draw a fish right up to your boat, but the fish can fight and resist and jump off the hook, yes? So, just because a fish is drawn does not mean it will come into your boat with you. And Jesus compared preaching the gospel with being fishers of men. So the analogy holds.

We see another example in Luke 5.

Luke 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.
5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

I believe this story represents trying to preach the gospel in our own power. Peter and the other disciples had fished all night and caught nothing. But when they obeyed Jesus (the word of God) and cast the net out, they caught an abundance of fish. I believe this speaks of preaching in the power of the Holy Spirit. The power of the Spirit is only given to those Christians who are obedient.

But notice very carefully the net brake. Some fish were drawn in, but still got away. Not every one who is drawn will believe and come.

 

[psalms109:31]

Drinking and driving

The Law says all people who drinks and drive will go to jail. Can the police catch all the people drinking and driving? No, but God does.

Do you think that if you tell the one who catches you that you didn't drink and drive you drank plenty before you drove, that you will get away with it? Can they pull you over and take you to jail for drinking something other than alcohol while you drive?

 

[zrs6v4]

I see it as the young rich ruler. He wouldn't of come to Jesus if he wasn't drawn. When he found out he had to sell what he owned give to the poor and follow Jesus. He turned away and went by his own understanding. He obeyed the Law and even was blessed by God with riches. God has showed him mercy all his life. He can get to heaven without Jesus, because he was righteous, self-righteous that is.

The question is what were his motives? He was drawn to having eternal life rather than God which was his problem. Your right he was self-righteous, he had many things he wasn't willing to give up to follow Jesus. He didn't exalt Jesus very much other than desiring to use Jesus to get what He offered. That is why the result was that the rich man left because he had many things he didn't want to give away.

A person who is drawn is drawn not to what God offers but to Jesus Himself and the blessings follow. If we come to Jesus just to get eternal life and not because we see Him and are drawn to Him. This is evidence of God's drawing work.

 

[psalms109:31]

Oh how many have been drawn to come to Jesus with the wrong motive and teaching. Who listened and learned and was taught they should trust in Jesus over their own understand and have come to the knowledge of the truth and remained in Him. They now are saved by the work of God in their life through the word of life and are born again.

Matthew 28:
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

When we lift Jesus up instead of our own understanding He will draw all men to Himself and not just set life only before them, but life and death.

Mark 16:
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I do believe that the Father has given all authority to Jesus and Jesus will draw all men to Himself when He is lifted up, but not with just life, but death to.

That God through Jesus has set before us life and death before us so choose Jesus and live and we are the messengers.

It is God who choose to save believers in His Son, not man.

Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[Isaiah 52:7]

 

[zrs6v4]

Oh how many have been drawn to come to Jesus with the wrong motive and teaching.

This is where I would agree God uses wrong motives, but the drawing work spoken of in John 6 is a little further in the process. It is the event where in the midle of sinful motives God shifts the sinners eyes unto Himself and he comes to Christ.

I'm not sure if any of your passages pertain to the drawing work of God except John 12. I disagree with your interpretation of John 12.

 

[convicted1]

The question is what were his motives? He was drawn to having eternal life rather than God which was his problem. Your right he was self-righteous, he had many things he wasn't willing to give up to follow Jesus. He didn't exalt Jesus very much other than desiring to use Jesus to get what He offered. That is why the result was that the rich man left because he had many things he didn't want to give away.

A person who is drawn is drawn not to what God offers but to Jesus Himself and the blessings follow. If we come to Jesus just to get eternal life and not because we see Him and are drawn to Him. This is evidence of God's drawing work.

Well, Jesus won't agree with you. He wept over Jerusalem because they weren't willing to come to Him, eventhough He said He would have gathered them.


John 1:11 states He came to His own (His Elect, if you will), and His own received Him not.

 

[jbh28]

Matthew 23:37

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But, could only those given by the Father be the only ones to go through the rainbow bridge??




:tongue3:<------------------------Right back at you, Brother!!! :laugh:

I like your keeping things in the contest of humor:laugh:

 

[psalms109:31]

High and lifted up

If I never see Jesus high and lifted up above me and my own understanding I will never see Jesus in the proper perspective.

The Father draws us through His word through His messengers and we come. We listen and learn we remain. To come to Jesus in the proper perspective we come we remain. We will never come and remain to remain until we listen and learn.

That even if we come with the wrong motives by trusting in Him over our own understanding and listen and learn we will come to remain.

It boils down to this and not left alone to where man wants to keep it.

John 6:
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

 

[convicted1]

I like your keeping things in the contest of humor:laugh:

I think a sprinkle of levity here and there will keepthings from running amuck on some of these contentious threads.

 

[convicted1]

Matthew 23:37

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!"

Well thank you there Brother. Jesus was willing to gather your children which broadens the scope of drawing even more. BTW, I hadn't picked up on those two words, even after reading that many times. See, I can, and do, learn from the Brethern on here.....

 

[zrs6v4]

Well, Jesus won't agree with you. He wept over Jerusalem because they weren't willing to come to Him, eventhough He said He would have gathered them.


John 1:11 states He came to His own (His Elect, if you will), and His own received Him not.

I think you are completely missing my point. First, 1:11 is in reference to the Jews, not the elect "in Christ". The Jews were God's people who rejected there Messiah. This is why Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

Second, God weeping over lost people in no way dismisses His drawing work. I strongly believe that God is upset (if you will) over the sins of people who reject Him. I think this is evident in Genesis. On the other hand I think God loves doing right which means He desires to do good, namely punish people for their sins. So balance the two, but neither of which delete the fact that God must draw people to Himself. Do not assume that He does this in some narrow minded way. Many people see God binding up sinners and tossing them in His truck rather than opening their hearts and giving them understanding in a way that they could not have done alone.

 

[zrs6v4]

Well thank you there Brother. Jesus was willing to gather your children which broadens the scope of drawing even more. BTW, I hadn't picked up on those two words, even after reading that many times. See, I can, and do, learn from the Brethern on here.....

It does not broaden the scope. John 6:35-40 includes the fact that everyone who comes will not be cast out. In other words, my view of drawing that is in line with a miraclulous work of God within a soul does not say that God rejects anyone who comes. What it does say that it is necessary for God to draw people otherwise nobody would come. So God can both weep over the lost who do not come and glory over those who He does save at the same time. The very children God was weeping over were the ones you argued in my John 6:35-40 thread were hardened by His hand. Why would He weep over those He hardened? In my view His not drawing someone to Himself is the very same as His hardening them. How does He do this? Leave them in their blind and sinful state. He does this justly and obviously, in some sense, it is painful for Him to do this.

 

[convicted1]

I think you are completely missing my point. First, 1:11 is in reference to the Jews, not the elect "in Christ". The Jews were God's people who rejected there Messiah. This is why Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

Well, the Jews were God's chosen(elect) people. When Moses, through God, took Israel out of Egypt, he didn't take just the "remnant", but all of Israel. When an atonement was made, it was made for Israel, not just the "remnant". The atonement was made for all, and only applied to those who chose to believe, the "remnant". When God called Israel out, by Moses, He called them all out, not the "remnant", only. The "remnant" were those who chose to believe. Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they rejected them, and knew the fate that was ahead in AD 70.

Second, God weeping over lost people in no way dismisses His drawing work. I strongly believe that God is upset (if you will) over the sins of people who reject Him. I think this is evident in Genesis. On the other hand I think God loves doing right which means He desires to do good, namely punish people for their sins. So balance the two, but neither of which delete the fact that God must draw people to Himself. Do not assume that He does this in some narrow minded way. Many people see God binding up sinners and tossing them in His truck rather than opening their hearts and giving them understanding in a way that they could not have done alone.

God does open up the heart, I agree. But there are those who have rebelled so long, that they have made their hearts calloused, and their conscience seared with a hot iron. WHen He called, they rejected, and therefore, their hearts grew harder. Like the seed sown in the wayside. The seed went there, but because it was hard, before it could penetrate the heart, the devil came along, and took it away. The seed is always good. Unfortunately, most of the time, the soil is not.

 

[psalms109:31]

I am not talking about a Peter denial I am talking about a complete disowning.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.

Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

2 Timothy 2:
8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

11 Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

Many people do focus on certain verses, not every word that comes from the mouth of God.