Let's Talk About "Drawing"

[convicted1]

It does not broaden the scope. John 6:35-40 includes the fact that everyone who comes will not be cast out.

That which I bolded I am in complete agreement with. Read throughout the OT and you will see that God was angry with His chosen people, and yet , at the same time, His arm was still stretched out. He was willing to bring them to Himself, but they refused and continually rebelled against Him. Just because God draws, doesn't mean they will be saved. Some will not come, and will suffer for eternity because of it.

In other words, my view of drawing that is in line with a miraclulous work of God within a soul does not say that God rejects anyone who comes.

Agreed. I never stated otherwise.

What it does say that it is necessary for God to draw people otherwise nobody would come.

Agreed.

So God can both weep over the lost who do not come and glory over those who He does save at the same time.

Agreed again. Kinda scary with the agreements, huh? LOL

The very children God was weeping over were the ones you argued in my John 6:35-40 thread were hardened by His hand. Why would He weep over those He hardened?

Because God hardened their hearts due to their CONTINUAL rebellion against Him. Read throughout Malachi, and you will see the picture. They were polluting the alter with their halt, lame, sick, and not their best. They made the altar of the Lord contemptable by doing this.

In my view His not drawing someone to Himself is the very same as His hardening them.

Nope(why did you have to go and break our harmony there Brother?? LOL :laugh: ). By His drawing them, and them not coming, He does this. Read in Proverbs chapter one, and see how He was willing, but they more or less, pushed Him away. And they paid dearly for it. Also in Deuteronomy chapter one, see what happened there, as well. The read Leviticus chapter twenty six and how He states that if they walk in His statutes what He will do for them. And then if they do not walk in them, see what He said He would do.

How does He do this? Leave them in their blind and sinful state. He does this justly and obviously, in some sense, it is painful for Him to do this.

Again, God does this by offering salvation to them. If they rejected Him, they will suffer in hell. If they accept His offer, they will be with Him for eternity.

 

[zrs6v4]

Just because God draws, doesn't mean they will be saved. Some will not come, and will suffer for eternity because of it.

This is a very difficult thing to explain online because there are so many things that need to be covered to clear up misunderstandings. Stack up a pile of bricks 5 bricks tall and call each brick a level of depth that God reveals in His word. When you are speaking of God calling and people refusing we are in agreement as I do not deny these statements, but the issue is the few passages that speak about depth number 5 that you try to dismiss with depths 1-4. I see what you are saying about God's relation to people but you are missing the point of drawing, or at least it seems. I hope neither of us are arguing for the sake of prideful arguing (which is easy ).

So I say this to point out the fact that there are different contexts to the calling of God. There are times we see God calling sinners through His people some listen and some don't. We see God calling through creation to His people. We see all sorts of illustrations that include the word call. But if you do not let certain passages interpret other passages I think lights start popping on and this is true for all of us.

So follow two easy steps )). 1. Read what you said that I quoted above. 2. Read John 6:37 and 6:39. I think you will see on level 5 (brick number 5 in our stack) that this is something a bit deeper.

So to summarize. Yes God moves people here and there He guides and directs even the lost at times. There are times where He tells us to do something and we refuse and this is also true for people who hear the gospel. Yet, When God has set His seal on saving someone it happens and the language for drawing in the context of John 6 and 10 is defined in this way.

 

[convicted1]

This is a very difficult thing to explain online because there are so many things that need to be covered to clear up misunderstandings. Stack up a pile of bricks 5 bricks tall and call each brick a level of depth that God reveals in His word. When you are speaking of God calling and people refusing we are in agreement as I do not deny these statements, but the issue is the few passages that speak about depth number 5 that you try to dismiss with depths 1-4. I see what you are saying about God's relation to people but you are missing the point of drawing, or at least it seems. I hope neither of us are arguing for the sake of prideful arguing (which is easy ).

So I say this to point out the fact that there are different contexts to the calling of God. There are times we see God calling sinners through His people some listen and some don't. We see God calling through creation to His people. We see all sorts of illustrations that include the word call. But if you do not let certain passages interpret other passages I think lights start popping on and this is true for all of us.

So follow two easy steps )). 1. Read what you said that I quoted above. 2. Read John 6:37 and 6:39. I think you will see on level 5 (brick number 5 in our stack) that this is something a bit deeper.

So to summarize. Yes God moves people here and there He guides and directs even the lost at times. There are times where He tells us to do something and we refuse and this is also true for people who hear the gospel. Yet, When God has set His seal on saving someone it happens and the language for drawing in the context of John 6 and 10 is defined in this way.

Well, the thing that bothers me, is all this that God calls sometimes, and He didn't really mean it. And then later on, He calls, and this time, it's for keeps. Or this is how the differ layers of calling get presented to me. When God calls sinners, He isn't offering them a shallow promise, but a sincere call. God called me for years, but I was too prideful(thought I could make it without Him, IOW), but when I rejected Him, it didn't make His call any less sincere than what it was when I heeded His call after several years of rejecting Him.