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Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

Tom Butler

New Member
In the thread "Do You Believe the Church Started At Pentecost" we find the use of a number of terms regarding the work of the Holy Spirit, some of which are said to refer to the same thing.

So let's talk.

In that thread, we read of baptism BY the Holy Spirit, IN the Holy Spirit, WITH the Holy Spirit, and being INDWELT by the Spirit.

Then there's the FILLING with the Spirit.

And, there's Peter's Pentecost Day sermon in which he said believers would RECEIVE the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be BORN of the Spirit.

So, are some of these terms referring to the same thing? What are the differences?

Release the hounds!
 

Tom Butler

New Member
Hmm, is there a lack of interest in this subject? Maybe other threads are attracting interest instead.

Let's go bumpety-bump and see what happens.
 

Allan

Active Member
Hmm, is there a lack of interest in this subject? Maybe other threads are attracting interest instead.

Let's go bumpety-bump and see what happens.
I will address it a little later brother. I'm trying to 'get out of' some other threads :)
Here are some old posts of mine on the subject to help get this going - from me and you previously (with OldReg thrown in as well :) )...
This one is about John being filled means he was indwelt..
So are you saying that John the Baptist is Jesus Christ since the Mark 1:1 states the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ and immediately speaks of John the Baptist? I doubt it but one can read that into you comment. - Me, I'm just being playful

1st. God does not save contrary to what He has decreed order. That order is believe and be saved. John had not yet believed and was in fact incapable as of yet. The fact he was not indwelt during that time period does not negate the fact that he was indeed saved later on.

2nd. John was only filled by the Holy Spirit not indwelt. We know this because scripture does not ever tell us he such and most importantly Jesus said the Holy Spirit or Comfortor had not yet be given to believers. Thus John falls squarely into that catagory. The Holy Spirit did not have permanent residence in John because that would mean Jesus was incorrect in His statement that the Holy Spirit had not yet been given to believers. So there is a huge distinction between the two.

3rd. John belongs in the NT because he is the herald of the coming Messiah.
But did you even read about John following Jesus even though he knew who He was?
Why not?
John was still preaching the message gvien him to preach even when Jesus was out preaching His. How was it that John still had disciples even after he declared that Jesus was the Lamb to take away the sins of the world?
Should He have not sent them away and all of them followed Christ?
When John died he was still under the OT because Christ had not yet been sacrificed nor had the Holy Spirit been given to indwell believers. The NT had not yet been inacted and ratified through His death and resurrection because it is only through those that the NT is even established.

4th. John was declared by Jesus to be the greatest of all the prophets who had ever been born (meaning all of the OT prophets) and yet Jesus also said that the least in the Kingdom of heaven is greater that John the Baptist.

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Do you see how John was lumped in with the prophets and the law (which are a direct reference to the OT) by Jesus, most notably verses 11 and 13.

And yet John being the greatest of all the prophets, godly and God-fearing men who held fast to faith and conviction, when compared to those of the Kingdom of God is said by Jesus to be the least. Pretty strong statement concerning those men and women of God, of whom some gave their very lives in faith. I'm not saying we are 'more' special because both are special to the heart of God. But it is apparent that we are special in a different way, not better, just different....
Then this was like 2 posts later..
Being filled is not indwelling but an empowering toward service or ministry. John was not filled with the Spirit continually before birth. That is taking the text beyond what is meant by filling. John was filled with the Holy Spirit regarding his ministry and that was partly identifying the messiah which was what happened in his mothers womb. IOW - what the angel was refering to was that John life was going to identified as a man of God whom God was using to reveal his truths.

Seriously guys, do a study on 'filling' and you see a clear distinction between that and indwelling. Filling refers simply to an empowering. Granted we do not see anywhere that the Holy Spirit did not leave John the Baptist but also does not mean that John was constantly filled. To be pertetually filled means that John from birth lived without walking in the flesh/sin. To waslk in the Spirit, and thus be filled with the Spirit, is to walk in righteousness and according to Paul that is a constant and daily choice. Your version implies that John was not only saved apart from faith but that he lived without sin from birth.
[/quote]
And then this one..
1. In scripture, are believers ever commanded to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit?
2. In scripture, are believers ever commanded to be 'filled' with the Spirit?

Answers:
1. No, because indwelling refers to habitation and as His temple He dwells in us.
2. Yes, because the 'filling' is an empowering to both live godly and for the work of the ministry.

His indwelling produces the Fruit of the Spirit.
His Filling(s) determine their growth rate.

You stated - So I can't get away from Luke 1:15, where the angel told Zechariah that John would be "filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb." It seems to me that John's preaching power and the conversion of many gives evidence that his filling was not temporary

How so? You just described his adult minstry, but where were all the conversions as he should have had as child, pre-teen, teenager. We only see John the Baptist coming into his minstry as a man.

The passage you refering to is speaking more to the point that he is a man whom God has chosen him to do God's work (message of repentance and identifying the Christ) and the 'filling' in his mothers womb was to emphasize both of those points.

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

The fact that the scriptures state he will be filled with the Holy Ghost speaks not so much to the length of time he will be filled but that God will be empowering him to do what God has chosen him to do. The fact that the angel says he will be filled even from his mothers womb simply illstrates the uniqueness and power of his ministry to be. IOW - it isn't about him being always filled but that he will be filled by God in his minstry ordained by God.

Look at the preceding passages to note not only 'what' his minstry will be but also 'when' it will be. So the context itself is not about how long he was to be filled but that he will have the filling of the Holy Spirit in his God appointed ministry so that there can be no doubt God is with him.

You stated - I also can't get away from John 20:23, where Jesus "breathed on them and said, receive ye the Holy Spirit." How would we describe that occasion? Filling, indwelling, what? It does seem to be different from the Pentecost experience, which obviously empowered the disciples in the upper room. But my point is that the HS was operating prior to Pentecost.

I will use John MacArthur here because he says what I would say but he is better at brevity than I am.

2. CONVICT WITH THE GOSPEL (v. 22)

a. The Pledge to the Disciples

"And when He had said this, He breathed [blew] on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit"

Theologians have tried to figure out if Jesus really gave them the Holy Spirit when He blew and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." The text does not say the disciples did receive the Holy Spirit. You say, "Don't you believe that they received the Holy Spirit right then?" No, I believe the Bible tells us in Acts 2:1-4 that the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. You say, "What is happening in John 20:22?" I believe that this is a pledge, on Christ's part, that the Spirit would come.

If the disciples had truly received the Holy Spirit, they would not have been still locked in the same room eight days later (Jn. 20:26). Jesus Himself said later, "But ye shall receive power, after the Holy Spirit is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto Me..." (Ac. 1:8). In addition to this, the indication in John 21:4, 12 that they didn't recognize Him shows that they didn't have the Spirit. If they had the Spirit at that time, He would have revealed Christ to them. So, this is simply a pledge that they would receive the Holy Spirit a few days in the future. By giving them the pledge of the Spirit, Jesus would then cause them to remember when they did receive the Holy Spirit, that He had personally commissioned and dispensed the Holy Spirit to them. He had said, "When I go to the Father, I will send the Spirit to you" (Jn. 16:7). So He gives them the pledge right here.
 
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Allan

Active Member
I just posted this in another thread but it address the Greek 'en' from which you are asking about - in, by, and with in connection with 1 Cor 12 and being baptised by the Holy Spirit..

Here are some reputable and admired Greek scholars on the issue:
Daniel B. Wallace in "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" (pages 373-374):

1. En + Dative for Personal Agency?

Some have suggested that either the naked dative or en + the dative can express personal agency in the NT. However, once a clear definition is given for personal agency, this will be seen to be a rare or nonexistent category. Williams defines the dative of agency as denoting “the agent (personal) by whom something is done. The only difference between means and agency is that means is impersonal, agency is personal.”

This definition is a little too general. It would be better to say that when en + the dative expresses the idea of means (a different category), the instrument is used by an agent. When agency is indicated, the agent so named is not used by another, but is the one who uses an instrument. (It may be noted here that an intermediate agent, usually expressed by dia + the genitive, is an agent who acts on behalf of another or in the place of another. This agent is not, strictly speaking, used by another as an instrument would be. Thus, en + dative to express means can be (and often is) used of persons, though they are conceived of as impersonal (i.e, used as an instrument by someone else). For example, in the sentence “God disciplined me by means of my parents,” “God” is the agent who used the “parents” as the means by which he accomplished something. The parents are, of course, persons. But they are conceived of as impersonal in that they are the instruments used by another.

According to our definition, if en + dative is used to express agency, the noun in the dative must not only be personal, but must also be the agent who performs the action. BDF accurately assess the NT situation of the naked dative used for personal agency: “Dative of agency is perhaps represented by only one genuine example in the NT and this with the perfect: Luke 23:15 .” In summary, we can say that there are no clear examples of the dative of agency in the NT, and even if the category does exist, it is, by all counts, exceedingly rare....

Then Wallace then gives two examples illustrating the above, and funny thing, both relate our subject passages:

1) Mark 1:8 “but He (Christ) shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit”

Here it is obvious that Christ is the agent (since “He [Christ]” is the subject) and the Holy Spirit is the means (and perhaps sphere) that the Lord uses to baptize.

2) 1 Cor. 12:13 “for by one Spirit we all were baptized into one body”

Our contention is that this is an illustration of en used for means. By calling “Spirit” means here does not deny the personality of the Holy Spirit. Rather , the Holy Spirit is the instrument that Christ uses to baptize, even though He is a Person. Since pneumatic hagio [Holy Spirit] clearly indicated means in Mark 1:8 (as in several other passages dealing with Spirit-baptism), it is surely not unreasonable to see “Spirit” as the means here. Furthermore, if the Holy Spirit is the agent in this text, there is a theological problem: When is the prophecy of Mark 1:8 fulfilled? When would Christ baptize with the Holy Spirit? Because of the grammatical improbability of pneumati [Spirit] expressing agent in 1 Cor. 12:13, it is better to see it as means and as the fulfillment of Mark 1:8. Thus, Christ is the unnamed agent. This also renders highly improbable one popular interpretation, viz, that there are two Spirit baptisms in the NT...

Thus, it is my opinion and many other, relating to the Greek, that the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is the Baptizer and that is not speaking, in any manner, of leading a person to be water baptised nor of there being two Spirit baptisms (which is not our argument here).

Also A.T.Robertson in his work - "Grammar of the Greek N.T", cites many examples of “en” with the dative being used in an instrumental sense but gives no examples of it being used for personal agency. This is not because he is overlooking it but because it isn't there. Thus this expresses the very point that the Spirit was the instrument Christ used to baptize believers but that the Spirit was not the personal Agent. IOW - The Spirit wasn't the actual baptizer except in the sense He instrument that Christ used to do this work.

Also we have in anothe work of A.T. Robertson and W. Hersey Davis "A New Short Grammar of the Greek Testament" (10th edition), we see the authors pointing out that hupo is used for the direct agent (personal agency). They then list four other prepositions which are sometimes used to express agency (apo, ek, para, pros) but en is not one of them.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm short on time, but I'll throw this in real quick.

This:

The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Jn3:8


......is NOT the same as this:

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word. And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:44,45
 

Zenas

Active Member
I'm short on time, but I'll throw this in real quick.

This:

The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Jn3:8


......is NOT the same as this:

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word. And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:44,45
Kyredneck, you're a smart guy and I'm sure you understand that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. He is unique in the universe and there is only one of Him. So why do you say John 3:8 and Acts 10:45 are different things?
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
....why do you say John 3:8 and Acts 10:45 are different things?

Hello Zenas; sorry, I almost totally missed this post.

Concerning Jn 3:8:

When Christ told Nicodemus, “..It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow.... thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit” (YLT), He wasn't implementing something new, He was revealing a mystery from of old, something that had not been understood before. The Psalmist tells of this birth from above in Ps 87 and of those from all nations that belonged to the heavenly Zion, and Paul states “..the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother”, and goes on to quote Isaiah, “...more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband” (Gal 4), showing further that God has always had his children from all nations who were born of the Spirit. There's nothing new here, it's something that has always been. And, it's for these children of Zion that Christ died.

Concerning Acts 10:45:

This is the baptism of the Spirit that John the Baptist prophesied of in Mt 3, and the clothing with power from on high that Christ foretold of in Lu 24:49; Acts 1:8; Jn 14, 15, & 16. This clothing with power from on high was the only reason the gates of hell did not prevail against the early Church. Christ promised them, “ I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you” (Jn 14:18), and He did just that on the day of Pentecost.
 
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kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I ran across this essay last year and saved it to favorites til I got a 'roundtuit'. I believe it is pertinent to the OP.

Excerpts from:

Were Old Covenant Believers Indwelt by the Holy Spirit?
http://www.swbts.edu/resources//SWBTS/Resources/FacultyDocuments/Hamilton/them30_1.pdf

"James Hamilton teaches OT and NT at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary’s Houston Park Place Campus. An ordained Southern Baptist minister, he is a recent graduate of Southern Seminary in Louisville, KY, where he studied under Tom Schreiner."

At least five positions have been taken on the issue of whether or not ordinary, individual members of the old covenant remnant were continually indwelt by the Spirit.

Some scholars assume that a sixth position exists, but I am yet to find an affirmation of this sixth position. Here I will list the five real and one alleged positions, giving a brief description and listing major proponents of each.

On the issue of the Spirit’s role in the lives of believers, some scholars see basic continuity from the old to the new covenant. These authors argue that the old covenant remnant was both regenerate and indwelt by the Spirit. Adherents of this position include John Owen, B.B. Warfield, Sinclair Ferguson, Dan Fuller and Leon Wood.

Another set of scholars agrees that old covenant believers experienced both regeneration and indwelling, but seek to incorporate texts like John 7:39 into their understanding by using language that allows for a greater or heightened experience of the Spirit under the new covenant. Nevertheless, these scholars see no fundamental change in the way believers experience the Spirit when the new covenant is inaugurated. Interpreters who can be placed here include Augustine, John Calvin, George Ladd, Dan Block and Wayne Grudem.

The third position is the midpoint of the possible views. These scholars indicate that they see OT saints as regenerate by the Spirit but not indwelt by the Spirit. From statements in their writings, it seems best to place here Millard Erickson, J.I. Packer, Willem A. VanGemeren and Bruce Ware.

The next position is for those who see the old covenant remnant as operated upon but not indwelt by the Spirit. Unlike those in the previous category, these scholars stop short of using the word regeneration with reference to the old covenant faithful. Articulators of this view include Martin Luther, Lewis Sperry Chafer, Craig Blaising, D.A. Carson and Michael Green.

At the opposite end of the spectrum from those who affirm full continuity between the old and new covenant ministries of the Spirit would be those who affirm that the Spirit had nothing to do with the faithfulness of the old covenant remnant. Those who argue that OT saints were indwelt sometimes assume that this is the only alternative to their view, but I have not found anyone who takes this position.

There are, however, a number of interpreters who stress the new nature of the Spirit’s ministry after the Christ event but offer no explanation of how old covenant believers became and remained faithful. Here we find prominent dispensationalists such as Charles Ryrie and John Walvoord. Most scholars who have written on the Spirit from the perspective of NT theology fit here, as do several authors who have written both commentaries on John and studies specifically on the Spirit in John – C.K. Barrett,
Raymond Brown and Gary Burge.

Before we continue, we should observe some interesting points regarding these positions. First, there are dispensationalists on both sides of this question. Leon Wood argues that old covenant believers were indwelt; Craig Blaising argues that they were not. Also, there are people who are soteriologically Calvinistic who argue that old covenant believers were not indwelt (Carson, Packer, Ware). This is noteworthy because those who argue that the old covenant remnant must have been indwelt usually do not agree with the Arminian understanding of prevenient grace and thus view sinners as dead and unable to respond. In their view, if OT saints were believers, they must have been indwelt.

Finally, the position that the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with the faithfulness of the old covenant remnant is, at best, very rare. This point is significant because some scholars assume that this view is held, and it seems to be associated with dispensationalists. I have found no one who either affirms or argues for that position.”

I personally waffle between the first and second positions.
 

Cutter

New Member
In the thread "Do You Believe the Church Started At Pentecost" we find the use of a number of terms regarding the work of the Holy Spirit, some of which are said to refer to the same thing.

So let's talk.

In that thread, we read of baptism BY the Holy Spirit, IN the Holy Spirit, WITH the Holy Spirit, and being INDWELT by the Spirit.

Then there's the FILLING with the Spirit.

And, there's Peter's Pentecost Day sermon in which he said believers would RECEIVE the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be BORN of the Spirit.

So, are some of these terms referring to the same thing? What are the differences?

Release the hounds!

Where's the mystery. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and Truth.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hello Zenas; sorry, I almost totally missed this post.

Concerning Jn 3:8:

When Christ told Nicodemus, “..It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow.... thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit” (YLT), He wasn't implementing something new, He was revealing a mystery from of old, something that had not been understood before. The Psalmist tells of this birth from above in Ps 87 and of those from all nations that belonged to the heavenly Zion, and Paul states “..the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother”, and goes on to quote Isaiah, “...more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband” (Gal 4), showing further that God has always had his children from all nations who were born of the Spirit. There's nothing new here, it's something that has always been. And, it's for these children of Zion that Christ died.

Concerning Acts 10:45:

This is the baptism of the Spirit that John the Baptist prophesied of in Mt 3, and the clothing with power from on high that Christ foretold of in Lu 24:49; Acts 1:8; Jn 14, 15, & 16. This clothing with power from on high was the only reason the gates of hell did not prevail against the early Church. Christ promised them, “ I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you” (Jn 14:18), and He did just that on the day of Pentecost.

What are the gates of hell?
 

Tom Butler

New Member
Where's the mystery. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

I'm going to hijack my own thread by asking, what does it mean to worship in the Spirit?

Does it mean, sat, worshiping under the control of the Spirit? And what does that mean?
Does it refer to some type of feeling (ecstatic, high as a kite, other) one has when he worships?

We throw that verse around, but what are we taking about when we quote it?
 
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kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
......and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

What are the gates of hell?

I get the distinct feeling I might learn something here. I've always looked at this passage as inferring to the warfare between the Church and 'the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places'. Whether the 'gates' represent an offensive or defensive posture, I don't know. Enlighten me.
 

Amy.G

New Member
......and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.



I get the distinct feeling I might learn something here. I've always looked at this passage as inferring to the warfare between the Church and 'the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places'. Whether the 'gates' represent an offensive or defensive posture, I don't know. Enlighten me.
According to Albert Barnes:

And the gates of hell, etc. Ancient cities were surrounded by walls. In the gates, by which they were entered, were the principal places for holding courts, transacting business, and deliberating on public matters. Cmt. on Mt 7:13. The word gates, therefore, is used for counsels, designs, machinations, evil purposes. Hell means, here, the place of departed spirits, particularly evil spirits. And the meaning of the passage is, that all the plots, stratagems, and machinations, of the enemies of the church, should not be able to overcome it--a promise that has been remarkably fulfilled.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
......the meaning of the passage is, that all the plots, stratagems, and machinations, of the enemies of the church, should not be able to overcome it--a promise that has been remarkably fulfilled.

Thank you Amy. That's zactly the way I see it. :)
 

Cutter

New Member
I'm going to hijack my own thread by asking, what does it mean to worship in the Spirit?

Does it mean, sat, worshiping under the control of the Spirit? And what does that mean?
Does it refer to some type of feeling (ecstatic, high as a kite, other) one has when he worships?

We throw that verse around, but what are we taking about when we quote it?
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
They that have been born again are no longer restricted to the leadership of the flesh, but have received the Spirit into their very inner being. If you do not have that indwelling Spirit, then that gives testimony to the fact that you have not been born again.

8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
The only way that one can know whether or not their worship is acceptable in the sight of God is when there is a Spirit to spirit connection. As Jesus taught the woman at the well and as I stated earlier; God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and Truth.
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Those that have been born again do not worship God in the flesh, although the innerworking of the Spirit may expose itself in an outwardly manner and while "they (Men) may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in Heaven," God, all the while is looking on the heart and knows if it is in truth and in the Spirit.Not only that, we as well as God, can know if it is in Spirit and truth because of Romans 8:16
 

Tom Butler

New Member
Thanks, Cutter. The reason I raised the question is that sometimes we believers appropriate the Biblical terminology without really giving thought to what it means. It sounds good, it sounds spiritual, and its hard to argue with it. And I have acquired the annoying habit of asking, "okay what do you mean when you say that."

I once was in a Charismatic worship service, where the worship leader began the service by starting to clap his hands, and a then began a strong drumbeat The worship leader shouted, "C'mon, we've got to get in the Spirit." To him, getting in the Spirit equated to whipping the folks into an emotional frenzy.

I don't think that's what you mean. When John wrote the Revelation, and said he was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, I don't think he was jumping up and down, clapping and hollering. So now you know why I asked the question.
 

Cutter

New Member
Thanks, Cutter.
You're welcome.
I once was in a Charismatic worship service, where the worship leader began the service by starting to clap his hands, and a then began a strong drumbeat The worship leader shouted, "C'mon, we've got to get in the Spirit." To him, getting in the Spirit equated to whipping the folks into an emotional frenzy.
I think all true believers are turned off by this type of usurping the role of the Holy Spirit in the worship service. Unfortunately, it happens way too often and many of the worship leaders are either told to do it directly or take it upon themselves to enter into this enterprise. Sad. :BangHead:
 
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