Let's Talk About The Word Draw..

[Benjamin]

They come from the same ROOT word. But they have different connotations.

Oh really...

One has the sense of dragging or hauling, the other has the sense of dragging away via enticement.

You seem to have missed the point that it is merely your sense that gives two different meanings to the same word. I've shown your "connotation" doesn't hold water by using the context where the word is used that it cannot mean irresistibly drag.

That is not the same thing.

That's correct, your definition is not the same thing nor can it be according to context.

 

[utilyan]

So is Jesus Christ wrong when he tells us himself what he means about what he says?

John 6:65

65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


He literally gives us clarification for 6:44.

Does δεδομένον ALSO mean DRAG now?

 

[loDebar]

No, I prefer drag because that is what the word actually means.

It does not say all men.

you are not being honest, We know it does not say men, it says ALL

helkō is only used 4 times in NT

1. to draw, drag off
   
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
   

but it does not mean drag in these verses either
Jas 2:6

But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

Jhn 21:6

And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

Jhn 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Reformed1689]

you are not being honest, We know it does not say men, it says ALL

helkō is only used 4 times in NT

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

but it does not mean drag in these verses either
Jas 2:6

But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

Jhn 21:6

And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

Jhn 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him and I will raise him up at the last day.

That's cute, and wrong. Draw before judgement seats. Oppression, yes, it is forceful. Drawing fish, that's not an invitation, that's dragging. John 6:44 we have dealt with at length.

 

[McCree79]

you are not being honest, We know it does not say men, it says ALL
]

"All" of what?

πάντας lacks the article and I am not aware of any textual variant that shows the article. It would require the article to mean "all" in the sense of "everyone". Without the article πάντας has the sense of "all types/kind" of people. Meaning Jews and non Jews. The BDAG strengthens this view by stating when this word is used as an adjective without an article and a singular noun is used it means "any entity out of a totality" Jesus is a drawing a smaller group out of the totality of humans.

The use of πάντας means "all types" here.

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[loDebar]

That's cute, and wrong. Draw before judgement seats. Oppression, yes, it is forceful. Drawing fish, that's not an invitation, that's dragging. John 6:44 we have dealt with at length.

you are arguing with a Greek dictionary and the Bible, not me.
no where is drag appropriate in the verses used.

 

[Reformed1689]

you are arguing with a Greek dictionary and the Bible, not me.
no where is drag appropriate in the verses used.

I'm not arguing with a Greek Dictionary or the Bible. I am showing you what both of those actually say rather than what you want them to say.

 

[loDebar]

"All" of what?

πάντας lacks the article and I am not aware of any textual variant that shows the article. It would require the article to mean "all" in the sense of "everyone". Without the article πάντας has the sense of "all types/kind" of people. Meaning Jews and non Jews. The BDAG strengthens this view by stating when this word is used as an adjective without an article and a singular noun is used it means "any entity out of a totality" Jesus is a drawing a smaller group out of the totality of humans.

The use of πάντας means "all types" here.

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what a question,

pas
individually each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everythin

collectively some of all types

this word never means some or partial

 

[loDebar]

I'm not arguing with a Greek Dictionary or the Bible. I am showing you what both of those actually say rather than what you want them to say.

I do not want anything, just showing you are wrong

helko is never translated drag always draw 8 times in NT

 

[McCree79]

you are arguing with a Greek dictionary and the Bible, not me.
no where is drag appropriate in the verses used.

Drag is appropriate in all those verses. The fish and the person being judged are moved against their will. The word means "pull, drag, draw", and the BDAG clarifies " with implication that the object being moved...in the case of person(s) is unwilling to do so voluntarily". Drag is appropriate in the verses you listed.

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[Reformed1689]

what a question,

pas
individually each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everythin

collectively some of all types

this word never means some or partial

So are you arguing with BDAG?

 

[loDebar]

Drag is appropriate in all those verses. The fish and the person being judged are moved against their will. The word means "pull, drag, draw", and the BDAG clarifies " with implication that the object being moved...in the case of person(s) is unwilling to do so voluntarily". Drag is appropriate in the verses you listed.

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Drag is not used for this word helko it is draw 8 times in NT

 

[Reformed1689]

helko is never translated drag always draw 8 times in NT

Good grief. And we already have shown what the definition of draw is. When you DRAW blood is that an invitation for the bood to fill the syringe or is it a dragging it into the syringe?

Drag is a synonym for draw.

The ORIGINAL GREEK means drag.

So this idea that it is never translated with the English word drag is irrelevant to this conversation.

 

[Reformed1689]

Drag is not used for this word helko it is draw 8 times in NT

Irrelevant

 

[loDebar]

So are you arguing with BDAG?

Que? What is that, ? I missed it

oh, you cant place English as inspired instead of the original langue and meaning.
English is not a good language for precise meaning. It is good for poetry , etc.


If you have G.r or Hebrew or Aramaic ,, the meanings of the word or thoughts have to take precedence over any other language, It is a problem with any two word from different languages not meaning the exact same thing?

capiche?

 

[McCree79]

this word never means some or partial

But it does. As stated by the BDAG

2 any entity out of a totality, any and every, every a as adj. w. a noun in the sing. without the article

Per Barclay dictionary

without the article(pl. all); every kind of


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[McCree79]

Que? What is that, ? I missed it

It is the foremost recognized Greek dictionary on the planet. It is what I quoted.

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[Reformed1689]

Que? What is that, ? I missed it

The fact that you asked this question tells me all I need to know.

But for your reference BDAG is a Greek lexicon. It goes much deeper than many lexicons by giving nuances of words and how they were used and cites references in both biblical literature as well as secular literature to make that case.

 

[loDebar]

But it does. As stated by the BDAG

2 any entity out of a totality, any and every, every a as adj. w. a noun in the sing. without the article

Per Barclay dictionary

without the article(pl. all); every kind of


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Are you going from English to Greek?

 

[loDebar]

The fact that you asked this question tells me all I need to know.

But for your reference BDAG is a Greek lexicon. It goes much deeper than many lexicons by giving nuances of words and how they were used and cites references in both biblical literature as well as secular literature to make that case.

I know, I do not use it . look up the Greek word pas and helko not the English. post what the definations