Liberty or Death?

[preachinjesus]

You know I expect posts like this from FAL. I am rather surprised at your taunting.

I'm honestly not taunting (if I was taunting I'd including nany-nany-boo-boo ) I just want people to put up, their evidence, or shut up, their rhetoric about this.

I've sat in this forum long enough to see the palpable difference in how one political party received and the other discounted. Frankly they're both corrupt and beyond redemption. I've also seen these kinds of false charges leveled against the administration. Frankly, I've grown tired of it. My challenge exists because:

a) These are false statements against people and Christians are to be better than this kind of foolishness.

b) These are error-laden and only serve to make those who claim them look ridiculous and out of touch.

c) We believers we should confront authority with facts, right now this is just confronting authority with rhetoric. It isn't NT and it isn't Christian.

d) We're better than this.

So honestly, my challenge for anyone saying there are "death panels" in this bill is to show us or stop impugning the President and the Congress on this issue. It really is an issue of personal conduct and Christian ethic. Such false statements deserve to be confronted.

This obviously has spill over effects and I've personally seen the anger and vitriol some will display against a political party in church. There is no place for it: we are to meet corruption with purity, falsehood with truth. <PA deleted - LE>
BTW (and I'll say this again) I don't think this is a good bill.

 

[Zaac]

I've sat in this forum long enough to see the palpable difference in how one political party received and the other discounted. Frankly they're both corrupt and beyond redemption.

Nothing but the truth. Which might explain why we've got darkness competing against darkness for the Presidency of the United States.

I've also seen these kinds of false charges leveled against the administration. Frankly, I've grown tired of it.

For sure there are false accusations made against he administration and the administration makes quite a few of its own.

Perhaps people ascribe stuff to the administration because the current administration never takes responsibility for anything. :laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Nancy Pelosi and her cronies didn't read it before passing it so I don't know why they think anyone else should be tortured by reading that Handbook of the Devil's making?

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[preachinjesus]

OldRegular, I'm quoting multiple posts (some not directed at me) to draw together your entire argumentation. As noted above I am challenging your entire disposition about talking about this law while also saying your statements are blatantly false.

The democrats are stupid but not sufficiently stupid to call a board that controls cost a "death panel".

They claimed it did not fund abortions to get the vote of some pro life dems in the House. Turned out they were lying!

Neither of these statement proves your point. You have yet to show us, by using the free download of the law, where the "death panels" exist in the law You have posted a completely unrelated section of procedure for debate but nothing actually related to the law itself. Since you pride yourself on being such a redoubtable conservative you besmirch your reputation with such poor argumentation.

You have said nothing here that proves your point.

Anyone really think the Senate can do anything in 30 hours. Then what happens. The recommendations are deemed passed like the bill was???

This also reflects a misunderstanding of the law was passed. Frankly I'm appalled at how the Congress, both chambers, acted in passing this. A better line of argumentation overall is to challenge the conference committee that like never before in the history of the United States took the mightily different Congressional and Senate bills and colluded to mash them together to form a final bill (which differed in major sections from the plurality of votes it took to pass it) and get it to the President. That is a more effective means of arguing against the bill.

I can't understand why FAL and PJ are so intent on defending this piece of Marxist garbage!

Whoa dude, don't ever accuse anyone on this board of this kind of stuff. I've never, ever on this board defended this bill

I'm asking you to apologize to FAL and myself for this ridiculous false accusation. Don't think that just because I'm calling you and your false charges out that I support the law.

I am not going to waste multiple hours trying to convince these two that the Board whose job it is to reduce the cost/person of medical care is not in effect a "death panel". The same people who passed this bill are the same people who fought against ever piece of pro life legislation in Congress and FAL and PJ want us to believe they give a rip about old people. Harry Reid, the real architect of the bill, has slopped at the taxpayers trough long enough that he won't be on Medicare so what does he care. And Obama is a dedicated baby killer!

This makes no sense. First of all the onus is on you to prove this, or any, statement you make on this board. If you say there are "death panels" (which is a ridiculous statement) you better be willing to prove it. Otherwise you are making a false accusation which violates Scripture.

It does to those with discernment. We have a non elected board placing limits on the actions of an elected body. If that is not of concern to you :tear:

This is a non sequitor and ad hominem attack. If you can't produce actual evidence for your claims you can't just call those of us challenging you "undiscerning" and besmirch us spiritually. That isn't fair or Christian.

I use the name "Death Panel" and I make no apologies for it!

So you can just make up terms and apply them ad hoc against things you don't like? I don't buy it.

Anyone with discernment should realize that the Bureaucracy of the Federal Government will seize power whenever possible. The 2700 page monstrosity, dubbed Obamacare, is supposedly written in Statutory Language which no one but the bureaucrats can really understand. There are groups with the expertise to understand and translate this language so that "normal" people can understand what is going on. The Heritage Foundation is one of these groups as "mandym" has noted.

Lots of bills are long. Look at the Tax Code or Budget that is passed every year. Look at the Defense Authorization Act, look at the Americans with Disability Act, etc Just because its long doesn't mean its wrong. You can't argue against a bill's merits based on its length.

Plenty of Republican bills are just as long...and just as bad as this one.

I have listen to doctors on TV discuss the possible limitations placed by Obamacare on medical practice. I have personally had two family doctors express serious reservations about the consequences of Obamacare.

Big deal, I've had over a dozen. But you still haven't proven there are death panels in this bill.

Anyone who has experience working with bureaucrats should be concerned about putting 16-20% of the economy in these people's hands. We have already seen that these people have no regard for religious scruples against abortion, contraceptives, the morning after pill, etc. What happens next?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc...just because a bureaucrat is in charge doesn't make the bill evil or bad. Plenty of bureaucrats work in the defense department. BTW, you still haven't proven there are death panels.

Again, I use the name "Death Panel" and I make no apologies for it!

"fal" and "pj" can get their drawers in a knot if they choose. And they can call me whatever unbinds that knot a little as long as they don't question my salvation.

My drawers are "in a knot." But you are libeling yourself in front of the whole world. Because you still haven't proven there are death panels.

I don't get this "I can call it whatever I want thing" either. You're completely discrediting yourself by propounding your ignorance.

Only the "blind or naive" would believe that a 2700 page bill, written behind closed doors in Harry Reid's suite, by persons unknown, apparently read by no members of Congress, and deemed to be passed, is not full of mischief for the people!

Not an argument or evidence for death panels.

Sport you have a serious problem. The entire law is 2700 pages long!

See my above comment. Listen in this forum, like others, the onus is on you to prove your claims. You haven't done this.

So what do we have from you:
* Poor argumentation and over the topic rhetoric
* Lots of red herrings and no actual interaction with the issues
* Still no proof death panels are in the bill

OldRegular, where are the death panels?

 

[OldRegular]

When we make baseless claims like OldRegular and others are making that deserves a rebuke.

Rebuke all you desire but as far as I am concerned you have no standing, to use a court term!

The claim is not baseless. Many who have studied the bill come to a similar conclusion. They simply use less graphic language.

Obama has Fascist tendencies and so do many of his comrades. He has shown that on more than one occasion. Perhaps you want to accept that type of government but I don't!

 

[preachinjesus]

Nancy Pelosi and her cronies didn't read it before passing it so I don't know why they think anyone else should be tortured by reading that Handbook of the Devil's making?

This isn't an argument supporting the claim about death panels. It is a slanderous claim that lacks any support. Most of the leading Democrats, and Repblicans, have said they read the bill. I'll take their word for it.

BTW, if you haven't read the bill yourself, what ground do you have to accuse them?

Not according to the law that y'all linked to. Apparently there is a very cumbersome process that must take place if they want to change any of the recommendations. Just look it up. I didn't say Congress COULDN'T change anything. It's just a very tedious process once the advisory board had submitted its proposal.

It isn't cumbersome. Show us specifically what and where you see this in the process.

And as I said before, it would be stupid and redundant to get an advisory board to do all this work and then not take their advice.

You just don't understand how our government works. We have tons of these kinds of regulatory boards that make recommendations. You think this is the first? Part of running a government like this (which I completely disagree with btw) is to use these kinds of boards. But again no one in the forum in this thread has shown where there are death panels or that these boards will decide life and death issues.

The Advisory Board exists. Established.

Show us where, in the bill these suddenly become death panels. Show us where in the bill this board(s) gets to determine life or death for patients and persons.

The panel gets to make recommendations in order to control/cut costs. Established.

No it hasn't been.

Because RATIONING is not defined in the law, there is the potential for the board to essentially be a death panel making choices to deny certain levels of care for people in certain stages of a sickness. Established.

This isn't true either. You have yet to show us where in the bill linked there is a provision for making life or death decisions in this procedure. You have yet to show us where this panel gets its authorization and authority. Finally, you are relying on someone else for your proof of this, how about you give us proof yourself.

So what's left to prove.

Lots. You and OldRegular have given us zero evidence that these death panels exist and that these boards can make life or death decisions.

The basic premise of the OP is still unproven.

 

[preachinjesus]

Rebuke all you desire but as far as I am concerned you have no standing, to use a court term!

So you can just decide who can or can't call you on the carpet for blatantly false claims? So you refuse to hear a rebuke about bearing false witness against other people?

The claim is not baseless. Many who have studied the bill come to a similar conclusion. They simply use less graphic language.

Show us, then show us where the death panels are in the bill. Show us where any board gets to make life or death decisions. Show us the proof behind your OP.

Obama has Fascist tendencies and so do many of his comrades. He has shown that on more than one occasion. Perhaps you want to accept that type of government but I don't!

Red herring and slanderous, ad hominem charge. I've statement above I don't support the bill or the administration in this regard. Get back to showing us your evidence. Stop trying to accuse me of being something I'm not.

 

[freeatlast]

Rebuke all you desire but as far as I am concerned you have no standing, to use a court term!

The claim is not baseless. Many who have studied the bill come to a similar conclusion. They simply use less graphic language.

Obama has Fascist tendencies and so do many of his comrades. He has shown that on more than one occasion. Perhaps you want to accept that type of government but I don't!

I agree that this President is a radical Marxist with a socialist agenda, but that does not mean you have to make false accusations against him or the things he supports. Let me repeat. I am totally against this law based on constitutional grounds not to mention the economic problems it may very well cause. However I will not at any time become like the world and make false statements to try and get it overthrown or prove my disdain for it. That is how satan works and has no business in the Christian life. Speak the truth, and the truth is not making up things that might be while claiming them to be, and the Lord will be honored and stand with us. Speak falsehoods and the Lord will be dishonored as He is being here by many and we stand alone

 

[mandym]

I'm honestly not taunting (if I was taunting I'd including nany-nany-boo-boo ) I just want people to put up, their evidence, or shut up, their rhetoric about this.

I've sat in this forum long enough to see the palpable difference in how one political party received and the other discounted. Frankly they're both corrupt and beyond redemption. I've also seen these kinds of false charges leveled against the administration. Frankly, I've grown tired of it. My challenge exists because:

a) These are false statements against people and Christians are to be better than this kind of foolishness.

b) These are error-laden and only serve to make those who claim them look ridiculous and out of touch.

c) We believers we should confront authority with facts, right now this is just confronting authority with rhetoric. It isn't NT and it isn't Christian.

d) We're better than this.

So honestly, my challenge for anyone saying there are "death panels" in this bill is to show us or stop impugning the President and the Congress on this issue. It really is an issue of personal conduct and Christian ethic. Such false statements deserve to be confronted.

This obviously has spill over effects and I've personally seen the anger and vitriol some will display against a political party in church. There is no place for it: we are to meet corruption with purity, falsehood with truth. When we make baseless claims like OldRegular and others are making that deserves a rebuke.

BTW (and I'll say this again) I don't think this is a good bill.

All of this assumes those who post this know better but are doing it anyway. What a shame you are willing to take on such and ungodly attitude and assume the worst about others. I have posted quite a bit to back up what I have said. Just because it does not convince you does not mean people are making false claims. It just and only means you and I disagree. As far as I am concerned this claim has much basis. Now you may not like that but that does not mean I am intentionally making false claims.

Maybe you could just agree to disagree.

 

[LadyEagle]

Moderator Note

Moderator Note:

My hand is tired from deleting so many personal attacks and insults on this thread and I finally have given up!!

Please remember to agree to disagree without stooping to name calling and insinuations towards other members on the BB!!!

For that reason and the fact that there is a 10-page limit on threads in this forum, this thread is now closed.

Please start another thread if you wish to carry on, but please be cognizant of the Posting Rules. If the personal attacks continue, the name calling, etc. Moderator action (infractions) will be issued. This is fair warning! Thanks for your compliance.

Lady Eagle
Moderator
:flower: