Liberty or Death?

[Sapper Woody]

Like most on here, I believe the bill is horrible. However, after reading it, I have to side with FAL on this one. People are spreading falsehoods about the bill, and are purposely remaining ignorant so that they can feel comfortable in their hatred of the POTUS. There is enough evil going on without having to make things up.

It is the purpose of this section to, in accordance with the following provisions of this section, reduce the per
capita rate of growth in Medicare spending

This clearly states that the purpose is to reduce the rate of growth in Medicare spending per capita. In other words, they don't want the cost per person growing too rapidly.

The three subsections under that tell how they are going to keep the rate of growth down:
1. Project the rate of growth
2. If the projection exceeds the target rate of growth, then submit a proposal on how to lower the cost
3. Congress decides to enact the proposal or not

Now, we get to:

The proposal shall not include any recommendation to ration health care, raise revenues or Medicare beneficiary premiums under section 1818, 1818A, or 1839, increase Medicare beneficiary costsharing (including deductibles, coinsurance, and copayments), or otherwise restrict benefits or modify eligibility criteria.

This clearly states that the board can not even propose rationing. It even says that they cannot propose an increase in copay, or a decrease in benefits. In other words, their proposal for decreasing the rate of growth of the cost of medicare has to come from the government side, and can not hurt the individuals receiving the care.

So, now the truth is out there in plain English. I don't like the bill any less than anyone else on here. But we need to at least know what we're talking about if we're going to combat things like this. Saying things about the bill creating "death panels" is not only either ignorance or outright lies, but it lowers our credibility.

 

[mandym]

People are spreading falsehoods about the bill, and are purposely remaining ignorant so that they can feel comfortable in their hatred of the POTUS.

You know what happens so very often on this board is the unChristian behavior we see here. Making a declaration of someone's motives in this manner cannot be proven and is rude at best. Why can we not disagree without such vitrol? It serves no Christian purpose to make these accusations that are not, in fact, the only motivation possible. Trying to tear others down in this manner is contrary to scripture.

 

[mandym]

Obamacare’s Five Most Damaging Effects on Seniors

In anticipation of the Supreme Court’s Obamacare decision, it is important to remember that the constitutionality of the individual mandate isn’t the only problem with the law. Here’s a list of Obamacare’s five most destructive impacts on America’s seniors.

Less choice. Obamacare puts 15 unelected bureaucrats in charge of meeting a budget target in Medicare with its newly created Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB). IPAB may be statutorily prohibited from directly rationing care, but that doesn’t mean it can’t ration indirectly by reducing provider payments for certain medical procedures, which can compromise physician autonomy in the delivery of care. In fact, the only way IPAB can control costs is by reducing provider payments. But cutting payments effectively rations care by limiting Medicare beneficiaries’ access to providers.

Fewer options. Obamacare delivers a strong blow to Medicare Advantage (MA), which allows seniors to receive Medicare benefits from a private health plan of their choosing. MA is popular among seniors—about 25 percent of beneficiaries are in the program—and in 2012, premiums fell by 7 percent and enrollment increased by 10 percent. But Obamacare cuts the program by $145 billion, which, according to the Medicare Actuary, will decrease enrollment by 50 percent by 2017. Furthermore, Heritage research shows that after Obamacare is fully implemented, MA beneficiaries will lose an average of $3,714 worth of benefits per year by 2017.

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/06/01/obamacares-five-most-damaging-effects-on-seniors/

 

[mandym]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7MS...xt=C3995e6cUDOEgsToPDskJCV8f2fB8q64xMGPeW13Ou


Like most seniors, Ann Lorenz relies on Medicare as she copes with serious health care challenges, including Parkinson's Disease. Ann sees a number of doctors and depends on a variety of prescription drugs and therapies to stay independent. She worries that Obamacare threatens her access to doctors, treatment options and insurance plans -- and her neurologist shares her concerns.

Learn more about the effects of Obamacare at www.heritage.org/ImpactOfObamacare.

 

[mandym]

The 10 Terrible Provisions of Obamacare You May Not Have Heard Of

...It puts Medicare decisions in the hands of an unelected board. The Independent Payment Advisory Board, a board of 15 unelected officials, will have the power to cut Medicare spending without congressional approval. These unaccountable government appointees will be able to restrict seniors’ access to providers, treatments, and services.

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/03/07...sions-of-obamacare-you-may-not-have-heard-of/

 

[mandym]

The President’s Medicare Plan: A Trojan Horse to Ration Health Care?

Last week, President Obama embraced the alternative: toughen up the bureaucracy and ratchet down Medicare payment to doctors and hospitals. The President described strengthening the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB), a 15-member board of unelected officials created under Obamacare to rein in the cost of Medicare.

Under Obamacare, the board can tweak Medicare to hold growth in spending beneath its target, mainly by making cuts to provider reimbursement rates. Reducing provider payments means reduced senior access to physicians, another form of rationing of health care that already occurs to some extent in Medicare today.

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/04/18...re-plan-a-trojan-horse-to-ration-health-care/

 

[Sapper Woody]

You know what happens so very often on this board is the unChristian behavior we see here. Making a declaration of someone's motives in this manner cannot be proven and is rude at best. Why can we not disagree without such vitrol? It serves no Christian purpose to make these accusations that are not, in fact, the only motivation possible. Trying to tear others down in this manner is contrary to scripture.

I wasn't trying to tear anyone down. I was making a statement that I will not retract. No, it's not the only motivation. But it is a motivation, and it is happening. I didn't say everyone, I said people are doing that. Which is a true statement.

You can see it in how the only answer most of the time is "Have you read the bill?" Well, I have read it. Not the entire 2700 pages, but the parts that people argue over. I've posted it with a clear explanation of how the bill does not set up "death panels"

Now, if someone were to argue that cutting the provider's payments will also cut accessibility, thus limiting clientele, etc, then that is another discussion that I haven't entered into. My point is that the bill does not allow "death panels".

 

[Don]

Unfortunately, histrionics are what's defining the IPAB as a "death panel," because such a panel that enacts arbitrary limitations on access and level of care can, and arguably will, lead to a "death sentence" for some people.

We are not at the point of assisted suicide chambers such as in "Soylent Green," however.

 

[freeatlast]

The democrats are stupid but not sufficiently stupid to call a board that controls cost a "death panel".

They claimed it did not fund abortions to get the vote of some pro life dems in the House. Turned out they were lying!

Your are still spreading false information just like the world does. There is no such board! Friend post the place in the law that sets up this board you are caliming exists and says they do what you are falsely are claiming or stop dishonoring the Lord with these false accusations.

 

[freeatlast]

Unfortunately, histrionics are what's defining the IPAB as a "death panel," because such a panel that enacts arbitrary limitations on access and level of care can, and arguably will, lead to a "death sentence" for some people.

We are not at the point of assisted suicide chambers such as in "Soylent Green," however.

Don there is NO SUCH PANEL set up in this law! The health care bill does not have any such panel set up. I am totally against this law on constitutional grounds but when Chrisatians go out of their way to spread false information that is worse then this law.

 

[freeatlast]

The insanity of this bill is shown in the following section. here we have an appointed board telling an elected legislative body, the Senate, how they will conduct business.


‘‘(D) SENATE LIMITS ON DEBATE.—
‘‘(i) IN GENERAL.—In the Senate, consideration of
the bill and on all debatable motions and appeals in
connection therewith shall not exceed a total of 30
hours, which shall be divided equally between the ma-
jority and minority leaders or their designees.
‘‘(ii) MOTION TO FURTHER LIMIT DEBATE.—A mo-
tion to further limit debate on the bill is in order and
is not debatable.
‘‘(iii) MOTION OR APPEAL.—Any debatable motion
or appeal is debatable for not to exceed 1 hour, to be
divided equally between those favoring and those op-
posing the motion or appeal.
‘‘(iv) FINAL DISPOSITION.—After 30 hours of consid-
eration, the Senate shall proceed, without any further
debate on any question, to vote on the final disposition
thereof to the exclusion of all amendments not then
pending before the Senate at that time and to the ex-
clusion of all motions, except a motion to table, or to
reconsider and one quorum call on demand to estab-
lish the presence of a quorum (and motions required
to establish a quorum) immediately before the final
vote begins.

This piece of "camel dung" conceived by Obama and Harry Reid was deemed passed and unread by most if not all who voted to approve it.

What is that! :BangHead: That has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

 

[Don]

Don there is NO SUCH PANEL set up in this law! The health care bill does not have any such panel set up. I am totally against this law on constitutional grounds but when Chrisatians go out of their way to spread false information that is worse then this law.

You should take a look at what Mandy posted. It appears that Obamacare does set up the IPAB.

 

[freeatlast]

Some of us are not trying to dissect the bill...rather we are asking the folks making the grandiose statements about death panels to prove it by using the actual piece of legislation that is now law.

I have yet to see any of you all show us where these heinous death panels are, but I'll wait with anticipation for that most glorious moment.

Yes and nothing will be shown as there is no such provision. The sad thing is when people who claim to be Christians stoop the the tactics of the world and dishonor the Lord. This is why we are in this mess is because of people like this. This is not because of President Obama or the democrats. This is because the church has left its first love and joined the world and its tactics/practices and the Lord is turning from us. You people who are spreading these false accusations need to stop or present the section of the law you claim sets up these death panels.

 

[Don]

In a sense, FAL is correct: the IPAB does not exist. Currently.

But sections 3403 and 10320 establish this board, and gives it authority to bypass Congress. Its primary responsibility is to reduce costs. Such reductions will have to be accomplished through rationing. As I previously stated, histrionics refers to such rationing as determining who receives care that would prolong life; and thus, "death boards."

Not my particular choice of words; but Obamacare does set up such a board, and there is a lot of discussion (non-Christian, I might add) against it.

 

[freeatlast]

You should take a look at what Mandy posted. It appears that Obamacare does set up the IPAB.

Then post the part of the law that proves it.
.
The Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB, is a fifteen-member United States Government agency created in 2010 by sections 3403 and 10320 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which has the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Payment_Advisory_Board

 

[targus]

...the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality...

And you believe that? :laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

And you believe that? :laugh:

No, I know that is what the law states. You and some others have been spreading false claims about what is in the law which may I point point is totally against the Lord.
It would be different if you were stating that there is some possible potential to wrong doing in the limiting care it would be accurate, but that is not what is happening. You and some others are purposely spreading false claims, which totally goes against anything the Lord stands for.

 

[Zaac]

Some of us are not trying to dissect the bill...rather we are asking the folks making the grandiose statements about death panels to prove it by using the actual piece of legislation that is now law.

I have yet to see any of you all show us where these heinous death panels are, but I'll wait with anticipation for that most glorious moment.

The Advisory Board exists. Established.

The panel gets to make recommendations in order to control/cut costs. Established.

Because RATIONING is not defined in the law, there is the potential for the board to essentially be a death panel making choices to deny certain levels of care for people in certain stages of a sickness. Established.



So what's left to prove.

 

[Don]

Then post the part of the law that proves it.
.
The Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB, is a fifteen-member United States Government agency created in 2010 by sections 3403 and 10320 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which has the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Payment_Advisory_Board

From the same Wikipedia article:
Other "savings would have to be found in private Medicare Advantage plans, Medicare’s Part D prescription-drug program, or spending on skilled-nursing facilities, home-based health care, dialysis, durable medical equipment, ambulance services, and services of ambulatory surgical centers".

In other words, the IPAB is not allowed to reduce care under the Affordable Care Act; but can make such reductions to programs not included in the ACA; i.e., thereby "limiting care."

 

[freeatlast]

From the same Wikipedia article:
Other "savings would have to be found in private Medicare Advantage plans, Medicare’s Part D prescription-drug program, or spending on skilled-nursing facilities, home-based health care, dialysis, durable medical equipment, ambulance services, and services of ambulatory surgical centers".

In other words, the IPAB is not allowed to reduce care under the Affordable Care Act; but can make such reductions to programs not included in the ACA; i.e., thereby "limiting care."

<PA deleted - LE>