LIberty University Lifts Hands and Praises God!

[Luke2427]

I'd rather hear the old time hymns rather than the 7-11 type P&W choruses that are being hyped these days.

I bet the average age of the hymns you sing in your church that you "call" old time hymns is about 75 years old.

Most people who talk about the "old time" hymns wouldn't recognize a truly old rich hymn if it marched up and bit them on the hinder parts.

Now, maybe that's not you, but I've heard a lot of folks employ this kind of language of whom it IS true.

Most old people, when they talk of the "old hymns" they mean hymns that were popular when they were adolescents forward.

They think old hymns include:

Because he lives
He touched me
The longer I serve him
I've got a mansion
etc...

The fact is that 3/4 of the songs just written are SO new that their author is still alive an well.

Most of the songs you love have PROBABLY been written since 1870 and it is probably not the OLDNESS of them that you love- since those songs would really not be that old. It is probably the camp meeting style of music- that clippity clop horse trot rhythm you love.

I find that old people today are AT LEAST as shallow as the young people who like their little 7-11 songs.

It's style driven- not substance driven.

Old people like the clippity clop doopty doop horse trot rythm music.
Young people like their effeminate sounding 7-11 songs.

Few today care much about substance in music. It's all about style- both old and young.

Give me the old hymns of the faith .... "I'd rather have Jesus than silver and gold........!"

This proves my point perfectly.

This is not by ANY means "an old hymn of THE faith."

It is a good one. And I like it. But this is pretty good evidence that you fit in that category of old people who talk of old stuff as if the church was born in their GRANDPARENTS DAY!!

This hymn you consider "an old hymn of THE Faith" has as its writer A MAN THAT STILL LIVES!!!

I love George Beverly Shae but the fact that you think HIS songs are OLD HYMNS OF THE FAITH indicates to me that you might be being a bit hypocritical here.

You seem to be criticizing young people for preferring stuff written in their day when it seems that you are guilty of the same thing you accuse them of- simply loving stuff written in YOUR day.

I actually think the SHALLOWEST period of song writing in the HISTORY of the Christian church was probably from the 1920's to the 1970's.

This quartet style, convention song music is usually so MIND NUMBINGLY stupid and empty that it is amazing that the Church picked it up.

Songs like "Life is Like a Mountain Railroad," make me angry at how stupid the church has become in loving stuff like that.

But actually there are some VERY good hymns being written in this past decade.

Like this one for example:

In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm

What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless Babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save

? Til on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live, I live

There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
( From: http://www.elyrics.net )
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again

And as He stands in victory
Sin? s curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ

No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From a life? s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny

No power of hell, no scheme of man
Could ever pluck me from His hand
? Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I stand

I will stand, I will stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground, all other ground
Is sinking sand, is sinking sand
So I stand
Lyrics from <a href="http://www.elyrics.net">eLyrics.net</a>

 

[Luke2427]

Fail... the 90's called, they want their soft, theologically weak music back.

Amen.
___________

 

[nodak]

At our church, "old hymns" means just that. Hymns. Old. As in from the 1500's-early 1800's.

We also sing a lot of gospel songs. Some of them are from the mid 1800's to the mid 1900's.

And we WILL keep singing well written new hymns.

We plan not to monkey with the melodies and beats on older songs. It is just flat out annoying if you know a song one way to try to sing it another way.

We've just decided no more songs that sound like erotic love songs, only sung to Jesus. No more sloppy wet kisses. That sort of song.

And since so many are coming out of the honky tonk country and western scene or the rock and roll bar scene, we will intentionally NOT be trying to imitate the world anymore.

 

[jaigner]

Ugh...I'd rather have my knee drained than be subjected to an hour of that musical and theological bankruptcy.

 

[Michaelt]

At our church, "old hymns" means just that. Hymns. Old. As in from the 1500's-early 1800's.

We also sing a lot of gospel songs. Some of them are from the mid 1800's to the mid 1900's.

And we WILL keep singing well written new hymns.

We plan not to monkey with the melodies and beats on older songs. It is just flat out annoying if you know a song one way to try to sing it another way.

We've just decided no more songs that sound like erotic love songs, only sung to Jesus. No more sloppy wet kisses. That sort of song.

And since so many are coming out of the honky tonk country and western scene or the rock and roll bar scene, we will intentionally NOT be trying to imitate the world anymore.

Care to give some examples?

 

[Jerome]

Most of the songs you love have PROBABLY been written since 1870 and it is probably not the OLDNESS of them that you love- since those songs would really not be that old. It is probably the camp meeting style of music- that clippity clop horse trot rhythm you love.

What is the year 1870's significance?

 

[jaigner]

What is the year 1870's significance?

Moody and Sankey joined efforts which led to an explosion of "gospel songs."

 

[Jerome]

Horrors!:null::null:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Horrors???

Horrors!:null::null:

Horrors?? ....To Moody and Ira Sankey's efforts?? Why would you say that? Their evangelistic efforts contributed to many being ushered into the Kingdom by saving faith in Christ. The music of that era set the tone and preceeded the worship that took place. If that is "horrors" we need more today!

Bro.Greg:thumbsup:

 

[salzer mtn]

I think that the churches i go to would be to dull for this crowd. I wonder if time last a hundred years from now what extremes the mega churches will do to pull a crowd in. I went to a singing service similar to this one time and as the electrical music was in high gear and the singers were blowing out the microphones, someone tripped over the plug and jerked it out of the wall and the spirit of the moment just died away.:thumbsup:

 

[nodak]

Examples: put me at the keyboard and ask for Power in the Blood. I can do it rock, salsa, honkytonk, rap, pop (several different sounds), disco for the thin gray ponytails, etc. Or I can do it as a gospel song.

When it comes to rock bars and honkytonk bars, all I can say is you know it when you hear it.

 

[Luke2427]

What is the year 1870's significance?

It is not very old.

They speak of loving the "old hymns" and more often than not they refer to songs written a good while AFTER 1870.

I included 1870 because it allows for the many songs written by Fanny Crosby and Ira D. Sanky which are so popular in these churches that think they are standing for the OLD ways.

 

[Luke2427]

Horrors?? ....To Moody and Ira Sankey's efforts?? Why would you say that? Their evangelistic efforts contributed to many being ushered into the Kingdom by saving faith in Christ. The music of that era set the tone and preceeded the worship that took place. If that is "horrors" we need more today!

Bro.Greg:thumbsup:

The point is not that they are not good songs.

The point is that they are not TRULY old.

Most old people who think they love "the old hymns of the Faith" wouldn't know most of the truly old hymns of the faith if they came up and bit them on the hinder parts.

Oddly enough, MANY young people in their twenties and thirties WOULD know the TRULY OLD HYMNS OF THE FAITH well.

Greg, if it was written by George Beverly Shae or Bill Gaither, it is NOT an "old hymn of THE faith."

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Well...Yes, No, Maybe & Sorta....!

The point is not that they are not good songs.

The point is that they are not TRULY old.

Most old people who think they love "the old hymns of the Faith" wouldn't know most of the truly old hymns of the faith if they came up and bit them on the hinder parts.

Oddly enough, MANY young people in their twenties and thirties WOULD know the TRULY OLD HYMNS OF THE FAITH well.

Greg, if it was written by George Beverly Shae or Bill Gaither, it is NOT an "old hymn of THE faith."

Luke...I'm 58 years old and if they are older than ME...they are OLD in my book:laugh:...if you factor in that I wasn't saved til 1977...then they are even OLDER...at least to me:smilewinkgrin:. I know what you are saying and you are, in essence correct. I know that George Beverly Shea and Bill Gaither (written) hymns aren't that old but some of the older hymns they may SING are older than them as well. The point is that this modern CCM stuff is light on doctrinal truth for the most part and more "man" centered than Bible-centered. Add the musical styles that are more at home in a bar, honky-tonk or a rock concert and you have something that appeals far more to the flesh than the spirit. We try to justify doing things these days simply on the idea that it must "appeal" to the whims and fads that might be "interesting" or "cool" to the young people. I think that is wrong. I can take you to plenty of (mainly IFB churches) where the youth groups have been taught differently from the ground up and they reject that stuff out of hand! It is refreshing to see that.....and THEY ARE DIFFERENT from the other kids around them and not ashamed of it. They also seem to have more spiritual fire and "depth" about them as well. Give me that any day over these groups that you can't tell apart from the lost kids around them. The type of music they are raised on is a HUGE factor in that. What they are "won with", they are usually "won too".....many times for LIFE. IMHO

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Oldtimer]

CHARISMATIC-STYLE WORSHIP: GETTING HIGH ON MUSIC
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/highonmusic.html

CONTEMPORARY MUSIC BRINGS GREAT CHANGES TO CHURCHES
Contemporary Christian Worship music is spreading across all denominational lines, and when it enters a church it brings more than a change in music. It brings a worldly philosophy of Christianity and a gradual lowering of all standards of morality and doctrine.

-- Article lists a series of churches and the changes they have made. Ends with this:

A word to the wise is sufficient. “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump” (1 Cor. 5:6; Gal. 5:6).
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/contemporary.html

Those are just two articles mentioned from this listing, if anyone is interested. http://www.wayoflife.org/database/musicheader.html

In closing......

When I watch the crowd while viewing a video of a music group with the sound turned off, IMO, there's something wrong if I can't tell whether it's a hard rock concert or a church worship service.

There's something wrong when a person says music that's inappropriate for Sunday morning at 11 is fine for Sunday night at 7.

Often, our choir will sing without any type of musical backup. Just voices lifted in praise and worship of our Lord. Ever wonder if CCM would be so popular and draw in the crowds if it was only done acappella?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke...I'm 58 years old and if they are older than ME...they are OLD in my book:laugh:...if you factor in that I wasn't saved til 1977...then they are even OLDER...at least to me:smilewinkgrin:. I know what you are saying and you are, in essence correct. I know that George Beverly Shea and Bill Gaither (written) hymns aren't that old but some of the older hymns they may SING are older than them as well.

Very few... what Gaither and Shae sing and write is contemporary music. You're forgetting that the church did not begin in your grandpa's day. 50-100 years old is not old as far as the church is concerned.

The point is that this modern CCM stuff is light on doctrinal truth for the most part and more "man" centered than Bible-centered.

Much of it is, but I'd say it is by and large deeper than quartet/Southern Gospel style music that your generation or the one just before you gave us.

I don't think there has probably ever been a shallower music than most of the stuff written between the 1920' and 1970's.

Yes, there have been good songs, too, but much of it is terribly shallow and man-centered.

Add the musical styles that are more at home in a bar, honky-tonk or a rock concert and you have something that appeals far more to the flesh than the spirit.

The doopty doop clippity clop music of the era you seem to espouse appeals to the flesh as much as the effeminate sounding music of CCM.
It is just that your flesh likes a different flavor. That's it. That's the only difference.

We try to justify doing things these days simply on the idea that it must "appeal" to the whims and fads that might be "interesting" or "cool" to the young people.

Bill Gaither type music is faddish- at least as much as what you repudiate.

I think that is wrong. I can take you to plenty of (mainly IFB churches) where the youth groups have been taught differently from the ground up and they reject that stuff out of hand! It is refreshing to see that.....and THEY ARE DIFFERENT from the other kids around them and not ashamed of it.

Different how? I've seen many of these types be "different" and it is often the case that they are just weird or self-righteous- not different in a good way.

They also seem to have more spiritual fire and "depth" about them as well. Give me that any day over these groups that you can't tell apart from the lost kids around them.

How different are these kids supposed to be and in what ways and how does liking music that was popular fifty years ago make one better in some way?

 

[Michaelt]

Examples: put me at the keyboard and ask for Power in the Blood. I can do it rock, salsa, honkytonk, rap, pop (several different sounds), disco for the thin gray ponytails, etc. Or I can do it as a gospel song.

When it comes to rock bars and honkytonk bars, all I can say is you know it when you hear it.

So the question then becomes, WHO defines what a gospel song sounds like?

Is it fast? Slow? Medium tempo? Does it have just a piano or just an organ or a combination of the two? If it has guitars and drums is it no longer a gospel song? If there isn't a piano and an electronic keyboard is used with string sounds instead of the basic piano sound, is it then not a gospel song any longer?

If we have a bible study at our home and I play "Power in the Blood" with just my guitar, is it not a gospel song?

 

[nodak]

When you play a song--any song, be it sacred music or Yankee Doodle Dandy--on any instrument, you can tell if it is being played to appeal sensually or not by watching the reaction you get.

Now, having learned my music from a brother who was deeply into the honkytonky scene, I know when the people around me in church close their eyes and their pelvises make the same gyrations they would make on the dance floor doing "belt buckle polishing music" that it plain and simple dishonors my Lord. Not rocket science.

Similarly, while we do indeed need to be culturally sensitive, if you turn the sound off of some forms of contemporary worship and just watch the crowd movements you cannot tell it from some forms of pagan African worship or from some forms of pagan Cheyenne worship. Now, not a problem for this scots irish/english/cherokee derived lady but it definitly is a big problem for some of my black friends and some of my native american friends.

We aren't ignorant either of the difference between a truly old (or new!) hymn and a gospel song. And yes, for a time gospel songs were used just as sensually as ccm is being used many places today. That was wrong. Which is why our church is moving back to true hymns of whatever age, gospel songs of whatever age NOT done sensually, and dumping the sensual Jesus is my boyfriend erotic trash.

We PROCLAIM the gospel, not try to seduce people for Jesus.

As to differences produced among people, I can only say this. We were told (and I bought it hook line and sinker) in the late 80's that we were losing the cultural battle and losing the young people so we needed to change to this trashy music, follow the young people's trends in clothing and grooming, and be more "relevent."

Yeah, that has worked out real well....not!

Maybe we need to go back to being boldly different from the culture around us, calling folks out of sin and out of all the cultural baggage of sin, and back to a life dedicated to God. Might make for smaller churches but how many today think they are going to heaven because they have added Jesus onto their life without repentance?

 

[12strings]

When you play a song--any song, be it sacred music or Yankee Doodle Dandy--on any instrument, you can tell if it is being played to appeal sensually or not by watching the reaction you get.

Now, having learned my music from a brother who was deeply into the honkytonky scene, I know when the people around me in church close their eyes and their pelvises make the same gyrations they would make on the dance floor doing "belt buckle polishing music" that it plain and simple dishonors my Lord. Not rocket science.

Similarly, while we do indeed need to be culturally sensitive, if you turn the sound off of some forms of contemporary worship and just watch the crowd movements you cannot tell it from some forms of pagan African worship or from some forms of pagan Cheyenne worship. Now, not a problem for this scots irish/english/cherokee derived lady but it definitly is a big problem for some of my black friends and some of my native american friends.

We aren't ignorant either of the difference between a truly old (or new!) hymn and a gospel song. And yes, for a time gospel songs were used just as sensually as ccm is being used many places today. That was wrong. Which is why our church is moving back to true hymns of whatever age, gospel songs of whatever age NOT done sensually, and dumping the sensual Jesus is my boyfriend erotic trash.

We PROCLAIM the gospel, not try to seduce people for Jesus.

As to differences produced among people, I can only say this. We were told (and I bought it hook line and sinker) in the late 80's that we were losing the cultural battle and losing the young people so we needed to change to this trashy music, follow the young people's trends in clothing and grooming, and be more "relevent."

Yeah, that has worked out real well....not!

Maybe we need to go back to being boldly different from the culture around us, calling folks out of sin and out of all the cultural baggage of sin, and back to a life dedicated to God. Might make for smaller churches but how many today think they are going to heaven because they have added Jesus onto their life without repentance?

Didn't you post a few months ago that you attended a "contemporary" service and actually enjoyed it?

 

[Michaelt]

When you play a song--any song, be it sacred music or Yankee Doodle Dandy--on any instrument, you can tell if it is being played to appeal sensually or not by watching the reaction you get.

Now, having learned my music from a brother who was deeply into the honkytonky scene, I know when the people around me in church close their eyes and their pelvises make the same gyrations they would make on the dance floor doing "belt buckle polishing music" that it plain and simple dishonors my Lord. Not rocket science.

Similarly, while we do indeed need to be culturally sensitive, if you turn the sound off of some forms of contemporary worship and just watch the crowd movements you cannot tell it from some forms of pagan African worship or from some forms of pagan Cheyenne worship. Now, not a problem for this scots irish/english/cherokee derived lady but it definitly is a big problem for some of my black friends and some of my native american friends.

We aren't ignorant either of the difference between a truly old (or new!) hymn and a gospel song. And yes, for a time gospel songs were used just as sensually as ccm is being used many places today. That was wrong. Which is why our church is moving back to true hymns of whatever age, gospel songs of whatever age NOT done sensually, and dumping the sensual Jesus is my boyfriend erotic trash.

We PROCLAIM the gospel, not try to seduce people for Jesus.

As to differences produced among people, I can only say this. We were told (and I bought it hook line and sinker) in the late 80's that we were losing the cultural battle and losing the young people so we needed to change to this trashy music, follow the young people's trends in clothing and grooming, and be more "relevent."

Yeah, that has worked out real well....not!

Maybe we need to go back to being boldly different from the culture around us, calling folks out of sin and out of all the cultural baggage of sin, and back to a life dedicated to God. Might make for smaller churches but how many today think they are going to heaven because they have added Jesus onto their life without repentance?

The bolded is why I was asking for examples of songs that you think are trash? You're making a very blanket statement and either you've listened to a very different list of worship music than I've experienced, or you're just against any music that you personally dislike.

Also, have to give you kudo's; I haven't seen the word "gyrations" used in a discussion in a long time!!

So basically I'm a little disconnected I guess because I haven't (that I can recall) experienced people in a worship service closing their eyes and polishing their belt buckles lately. Even a few churches we've visited when on vacation, one being Passion City Church and the other Buckhead Church in the Atlanta area, while both had very contemporary music, the people who gathered to worship there while going through a range of activities, i.e. lifting hands, clapping, singing, and some were even swaying a bit at times, I didn't perceive any of them acting like they wanted to take Jesus out for a pizza and then "make out" later........

With that said, for our local church, honestly I yearn sometimes for a little more expressiveness from those who gather with us, but I don't judge those who sit brick like in the pews as being less worshipful than those who stand, raise their hands, clap, etc.

Still, I would be very interested in viewing at least a handful of songs that you deem harmful to the gospel. I'm wondering if it is more the persons reaction to the song (and probably based on past experiences as you have offered) than it is the actual song?