LIberty University Lifts Hands and Praises God!

[12strings]

Love these types of discussions. My question would be this.
What constitutes an "old hymn", and what about "new hymns"?
What about "old hymns" that are arranged a little differently musically, but keep the same
lyrics?

I was going to say good questions...but then I reconsidered...When I'm preparing music each week for my churhc, I don't think those questions matter hardly at all. What matters is...

-Is it true Biblically?
-Is it true to human experience? (Does it say we won't have any trouble if we just trust Jesus? If so, that's not really true is it?)
-Is the melody Singable by musically untrained people? (this does, by default eliminate a lot of contemporary hymns, and some older hymns as well)
-Are MOST of the songs we are singing familiar to most of the people, so that they don't feel lost?
-If people only heard the music and no preaching, would they hear the Gospel of Jesus and his cross?

WHEN the song was written has almost ZERO bearing on whether or not a song is sung in our church. An average sunday includes 6 songs total, and that may range from 4 older hymns/ 2 newer hymns...to 1 older hymns, 5 newer hymns.

(BTW, I'm intentionally calling all these songs hymns because the longest and oldest definition of a hymn is simply "sung praise to God". So in the 1600's, no matter what musical stye you wrote in, if you wrote a song to God for church use, it would have been called a hymn. So, "A Mighty Fortress" is a hymn...and David Crowders "You Alone" is a Hymn, it's just a new one)

Finally, regarding Older Hymns done in a different style...I generally think it's best to keep the melody the same...altering the accompaniment will not make the song impossible to sing for someone who has grown up singing it.

If you want to change an older hymn, just take the text and write a whole new melody...but if you just start altering the melody slightly hear and there, you make it hard on those who know a hymn well.

 

[Michaelt]

I was going to say good questions...but then I reconsidered...When I'm preparing music each week for my churhc, I don't think those questions matter hardly at all. What matters is...

-Is it true Biblically?
-Is it true to human experience? (Does it say we won't have any trouble if we just trust Jesus? If so, that's not really true is it?)
-Is the melody Singable by musically untrained people? (this does, by default eliminate a lot of contemporary hymns, and some older hymns as well)
-Are MOST of the songs we are singing familiar to most of the people, so that they don't feel lost?
-If people only heard the music and no preaching, would they hear the Gospel of Jesus and his cross?

WHEN the song was written has almost ZERO bearing on whether or not a song is sung in our church. An average sunday includes 6 songs total, and that may range from 4 older hymns/ 2 newer hymns...to 1 older hymns, 5 newer hymns.

(BTW, I'm intentionally calling all these songs hymns because the longest and oldest definition of a hymn is simply "sung praise to God". So in the 1600's, no matter what musical stye you wrote in, if you wrote a song to God for church use, it would have been called a hymn. So, "A Mighty Fortress" is a hymn...and David Crowders "You Alone" is a Hymn, it's just a new one)

Finally, regarding Older Hymns done in a different style...I generally think it's best to keep the melody the same...altering the accompaniment will not make the song impossible to sing for someone who has grown up singing it.

If you want to change an older hymn, just take the text and write a whole new melody...but if you just start altering the melody slightly hear and there, you make it hard on those who know a hymn well.

Agreed, I wasn't offering the questions in regard to music selection for service, and I'm with you I don't use those as bullet points in selecting the music for our services; I would say I'm much more aligned with the questions you stated. I was more in a general sense asking in the tenor of the thread. There are a number of wonderful songs that I enjoy listening to while commuting to and from work or on weekends in the yard or the train room, but would not bring them to a worship service because they are more fluffery as I call it, and not intended to be used in a corporate worship service IMO. A few that come to mind are Stephen Curtis Chapman (Cinderella and a few others, although he also has some great music that we use in worship), Casting Crowns, Third Day, etc. While pleasing and non harmful music lyrically and with the story lines of the songs, IMO they are not always appropriate for our corporate gatherings.

One of the websites I use in selecting music, lifeway worship,they have a number of the time tested hymns with different arrangements, and yes the melody is still the same, but the beat and musical arrangement is a little different, what many would call "modernized". Now, it that necessary? No, many of the hymns stand very well on their own, but I have noticed that in offering some of the newer arrangements available, some in our congregation have sung along more so than they have when it's offered in its' traditional arrangement.

As I stated earlier in the thread (I think) I've removed the labels and have told our choir and musician team that we are going to sing/play worship songs, songs that lift Christ up, songs that bring praise and glory to God, regardless of when they were penned, or the arrangement. There are some beautiful songs that just cannot be played as a congregation song as the majority of the congregation would be a little lost; we use those for songs during our offertory time, or our fellowship time (the meet and greet moments), times like that.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Worshiped with a predominantly black congregation last Sunday and thoroughly enjoyed it- even the clapping and swaying with the music part.

Many of these discussions are simply silly. What is "old paths" now was once "contemporary" and was rejected by the "true believers" back then.

I love both hymns and contemporary, and will agree that much of contemporary "Christian" music is very weak, but I will not throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Luke2427]

The bolded is why I was asking for examples of songs that you think are trash? You're making a very blanket statement and either you've listened to a very different list of worship music than I've experienced, or you're just against any music that you personally dislike.

This is not true. "Jesus is my boyfriend" music is a very good way to characterize much of CCM. You could replace the name of Jesus with the name "Sue" and it fit just as well.

It lacks theological depth. It is sung effeminately.

But,yes, there is a lot of good stuff out there too. I don't care for the sound of much of it. I like a lot of Christ Tomlin songs but I like very little of the music and the way he sings most of it because it is effeminate sounding.

But songs like "How Deep the Father's Love for Us" are very good.

So basically I'm a little disconnected I guess because I haven't (that I can recall) experienced people in a worship service closing their eyes and polishing their belt buckles lately.

Mocking the debater does not carry with it the goal of uncovering truth.

Even a few churches we've visited when on vacation, one being Passion City Church and the other Buckhead Church in the Atlanta area, while both had very contemporary music, the people who gathered to worship there while going through a range of activities, i.e. lifting hands, clapping, singing, and some were even swaying a bit at times, I didn't perceive any of them acting like they wanted to take Jesus out for a pizza and then "make out" later........

I've seen Christians who look more like they are trying to make out with Jesus in these type services than they look like they are worshiping him.

 

[Michaelt]

This is not true. "Jesus is my boyfriend" music is a very good way to characterize much of CCM. You could replace the name of Jesus with the name "Sue" and it fit just as well.

Ok, such as? I'm not debating to be on another side of the road on this, I want to see what you folks see in order to try and understand what you're getting at.

It lacks theological depth. It is sung effeminately.

It is sung with characteristics of a female? Ok, you're REALLY going to have to describe this one for me...

But,yes, there is a lot of good stuff out there too. I don't care for the sound of much of it. I like a lot of Christ Tomlin songs but I like very little of the music and the way he sings most of it because it is effeminate sounding.
But songs like "How Deep the Father's Love for Us" are very good.

So you think Chris Tomlin sings like a girl?

Mocking the debater does not carry with it the goal of uncovering truth.

Not meaning to mock, just using their words to try and get a better understanding instead of conjuring up other words that might not correlate with their intention.

I've seen Christians who look more like they are trying to make out with Jesus in these type services than they look like they are worshiping him.

Ok, then the question has to be asked; what does it look like for a person who is trying to make out with Jesus, vs. a person who is worshiping?

 

[Mexdeaf]

I can remember back in the good old days when our old fashioned Brethren church sang only hymns as they were led by women- talk about singing effeminately.

LOL!

 

[Alive in Christ]

I love the old time hymns. I also love contemporary praise and worship music. I am a musician and I love hearing and playing each style.

In my opinion they both have Gods anointing. I believe that Christ centered hip hop and rap has Gods anointing on them, althogh I dont enjoy those forms of music.

To each thier own. Praise God for variety!

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Sad..very sad..

Very few... what Gaither and Shae sing and write is contemporary music. You're forgetting that the church did not begin in your grandpa's day. 50-100 years old is not old as far as the church is concerned.


Much of it is, but I'd say it is by and large deeper than quartet/Southern Gospel style music that your generation or the one just before you gave us.

I don't think there has probably ever been a shallower music than most of the stuff written between the 1920' and 1970's.

Yes, there have been good songs, too, but much of it is terribly shallow and man-centered.


The doopty doop clippity clop music of the era you seem to espouse appeals to the flesh as much as the effeminate sounding music of CCM.
It is just that your flesh likes a different flavor. That's it. That's the only difference.


Bill Gaither type music is faddish- at least as much as what you repudiate.


Different how? I've seen many of these types be "different" and it is often the case that they are just weird or self-righteous- not different in a good way.

How different are these kids supposed to be and in what ways and how does liking music that was popular fifty years ago make one better in some way?

Luke...I'm sorry brother but I'm just going to have to back away from having a dialogue with you on this matter. Just the way that you broke my comments down and found something critical with almost all of them tells me that your intent is to criticize without any attempt at edification. The smilies that I inserted in my post should have been a clue that "I got" what you were previously saying yet you went ahead and cut me to ribbons anyway. I have no ill-will towards you but it is obvious to me that we would have many areas of disagreement over spiritual matters. That is sad but I know it happens sometimes in this fallen world we live in.
Romans 12:18 says -"If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."
Sometimes, sadly, the only option we have is to just avoid people if we are to live peaceably...this may be one of those cases. I don't really know you well and you don't know me either. I have seen you post things that I just had to let pass by me and I think I will continue to do so for the time being. I do however wish you well.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[12strings]

Here is a link: Is This manly or not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm8ApYIkBYg

("Warrior" by Sojourn Church)

 

[Alive in Christ]

Well, I just finished reading the linked material from the Way of Life source.

What absolute nonsensical DRIVAL! Shame on them.

Reminded me of Bob Larsons sillness.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here is a link: Is This manly or not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm8ApYIkBYg

("Warrior" by Sojourn Church)

NO....I got thru a minute of it before turning it off...very tedious.

 

[nodak]

Yes--I did indeed attend and enjoy a contemporary service.

And if you read my posts in this thread, I haven't said our church will do no new music. What I have said is that we will do both old and new hymns, old and new gospel songs done in a non-sensual manner, and drop the more sensual praise and worship songs.

Now, doing that means basically for us dropping the power point and using our hymnals--which are fairly new and have both old and new hymns, old and new gospel songs, etc.

You can take a hymn as old as A Mighty Fortress is our God and do it in a Christ dishonoring (depending on the culture you serve) manner. Or you can do it in a manner that honors Him. Depending on where you are, it may have a bit of a German march sound, or a bit of a country lilt, or a bit of upbeat rock sound WITHOUT going over the line into being trashy.

 

[Amy.G]

I think you guys need some HELP in this area.


:laugh:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Another matter of opinion

Well, I just finished reading the linked material from the Way of Life source.

What absolute nonsensical DRIVAL! Shame on them.

Reminded me of Bob Larsons sillness.

My my ...but we sure are an opinionated bunch here on the BB. Bro.Cloud's viewpoint leans totally toward and in support of the "traditional" style of hymnody and completely against the move among many modern churches toward the CCM style of music and "worship". He came out of a DEEP immersion in the rock/pop culture when he was first saved and rejects anything that even remotely moves back in the direction of that style of music. I stand on the same ground that he does for the most part. Music by style and substance is a powerful moral "voice" for good or evil. It is NOT "ammoral" as some suppose. To believe so is to have one's head firmly planted in the sand....IMHO. The move toward the contemporary form of "worship" that we see today that abandons traditional worship styles and the boundaries of separation and holiness is at the cusp of the movement toward the compromise that will lead to the true establishment of the one-world church of the end-times. You can be sure that all those unsaved Catholics and mainline "protestant" denominations (true baptists are NOT protestants) as well as those way-out-there Charismatics of our day LOVE this kind of "worship" too. It is a huge mistake to adopt their methodology and yoke up with them "for the sake of unity". God says, " come out from among them and be ye separate". The dividing lines have been clearly established. My advise is that we all need to be VERY careful to be on the right "side". By the way...I don't really care if ANYBODY here on this board agrees with me on this. I believe I'm where God would have me to stand on these matters. If He wants to change my mind or my direction that my ear is canted in His direction and my eyes, heart and mind are open to His Word.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Michaelt]

That really negates a LOT of styles for worship music, if we all follow the direction of B. Cloud.

Interesting that I spent many years growing up listening to many styles of rock music (pop, hard rock, heavy metal, etc.), jazz, country, blues, and I never felt hypnotized by it.

Also to note, when we sing/play modern worship music, whether in any of our services or at home or with friends just jammin', I don't feel hypnotized by the music either.

Guess I'm not listening correctly. :thumbs:

Btw B. Greg, where do you stand on dancing before God? Is that on the right "side"?

 

[Michaelt]

I think you guys need some HELP in this area.
:laugh:

The worship javelin! That's funny!!

 

[InTheLight]

The worship javelin! That's funny!!

Tim Hawkins is a hilarious christian comedian. He does a bit called "If rock-n-rollers" became "holy rollers", where he changes the lyrics to pop songs to Christian themes.

Example: Rolling Stones "I Can't Get No Satisfaction" becomes "I Can't Get My Own Salvation" or Tom Petty's "Don't have to Live like a Refugee" becomes "Don't have to live like a Pharisee."

http://grooveshark.com/#!/s/If+Rock+And+Rollers+Became+Holy+Rollers/2UAL0v?src=5

 

[Michaelt]

I've seen bits and pieces of his act on you tube vid's...he is a funny guy, and a lot of it is actual and not made up.

 

[Michaelt]

This is not true. "Jesus is my boyfriend" music is a very good way to characterize much of CCM. You could replace the name of Jesus with the name "Sue" and it fit just as well.

So to see how this would work, (I listen to K-Love radio on my drive to and from work) I listened yesterday and in every song that had Jesus or even God in it, I inserted the name "Sue" to see if it would fit just as well as you claimed.

I'd have to say that it didn't fit very well at all... :wavey:

A few quick examples from songs heard this morning...

"I believe, in the one, true, "Sue"........

nope that doesn't work

"I'm coming back to the heart of worship, and it's all about "Sue".........

umm, nope, that doesn't make it either.

"Our "Sue" is greater, our "Sue" is stronger,
"Sue" you are higher than any other...........

really misses on that one...

"Raise a shout, to let all the world know that "Sue" saves.....

kinda made me chuckle on that one........

So the question I posed a couple days ago still stands. For those of you who believe CCM is problematic, I'd like to see some examples of songs, not blanket overall genres, but specific songs that some of you have problems with. I'd like to seek the song out, listen to it, get the lyrics, and see if it really is as problematic as you claim it is, or if it's just a personal taste in music issue.

michael

 

[InTheLight]

So the question I posed a couple days ago still stands. For those of you who believe CCM is problematic, I'd like to see some examples of songs, not blanket overall genres, but specific songs that some of you have problems with. I'd like to seek the song out, listen to it, get the lyrics, and see if it really is as problematic as you claim it is, or if it's just a personal taste in music issue.

michael

Loved your Sue examples!

Here's my take on this. I listen to CCM music at home, in my truck, on my phone, etc. but I prefer hymns during worship. Just the way I was brought up. I don't have a problem with CCM worship songs so long as the song leader and/or band are not pretending they are making a music video, i.e. making the song about their performance (look at me!, look at me!) but rather are focusing on the Lord.

I'll say you won't get any takers to find you a specific song that meets the "Sue" criteria or other problems with lyrics because these people don't listen to CCM music and so are unfamiliar with it and/or their objection is really the musical instruments used and/or the repetitious chorus. I'm pretty sure I could come up with some, though.