Limitations for divorced men

[JonShaff]

Well even in my own sin we must remember that God still uses people who sin. Thousands of Christians get divorced for non biblical reasons and God still uses them.

Yes, God also used Pharoah.

 

[Rolfe]

I failed in the marriage by making a mistake in marrying.

The failure was in leaving your Wife.

 

[Rolfe]

But John MacArthur CLEARLY disagrees with Keener.

Inconvenient...

 

[TCassidy]

How many times was she arrested for abusing you? How many of your bones did she break? How many times did you have to go to the emergency room because of her abuse?

Disagreeing with you is not "abuse."

 

[JamesL]

This whole scenario looks very similar to one in our church. A young girl who was involved in ministry was dating a boy and wanted to marry him. But she was counseled by everyone close to her not to do it. But she did anyway

Then they started having problems and he became verbally abusive and drinkingl, and she wanted to divorce him. And she was counseled not to do it. But she did anyway.

Before the ink was dry on the divorce decree, she started running around with another young man in the church, even though she was counseled not to.

Within one month of her divorce, she wanted to marry this young man. And she was counseled not to. But she did anyway.

And now, he's not the spiritual leader type who she dreamed he might be....

It's only a little different in that they each have kids separately, and they have one together now.

I haven't heard anything concrete about the state of this one, but I can only imagine where it's heading....

 

[JonC]

There is more than one way to interpret a passage of scripture. That's why we have hermeneutics.

I agree that sometimes there can be a couple of interpretations without a clear cut solution. Good point.

Brother, I don’t want you to take me wrong here because I agree that Keener is an educated man and a scholar of the New Testament. But I keep wondering why Keener? He seems so far from your beliefs. I don’t mean this to be anti-Keener at all, but only to look at how he lines up with your interpretations and with the doctrines of your church because as a Charismatic he seems more in line with your ex-wife's church than yours (and you worked so hard finding this one).

Keener graduated with a BA from Central Bible College (“the Assemblies of God national university”), a M.A. and M.Div. from the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. from Duke University. He is a professor at Asbury, which is “rooted in the Wesleyan tradition” (which forms a part of their statement of faith).
Here are a few places that may highlight this difference in interpretation you mention:

Keener teaches that spiritual sign gifts such as the gift of tongues are for today (some Christians “contrary to 1 Corinthians 14:38,…despise the gift”).

Keener teaches that “those once converted could fall away.”

Keener teaches that God calls both men and women as pastors and leaders of the church. He dismisses what many would refer to as “gender roles” by explaining that Paul was implementing a “short range solution”. What was happening, per Keener, is that these women were (due to their culture) uneducated and were teaching falsely. So Paul commanded a sort range solution – don’t let them teach, and a long range plan – let them learn, so that they could adequately become pastors, teachers, and leaders. He was, per Keener, liberating women and elevating them to that position which has traditionally been denied them.

You have spoken out against charismatics in the past (I remember you addressing this topic when we discussed the “Strange Fire conference”). Much of the issue was hermenutical approaches to Scripture. But Craig Keener is a charismatic. He even wrote a review of MacArthur’s book, Strange Fire, condemning MacArthur as “suppressing some biblical truth”, of having “clearly overstepped the bounds of reason” and his selective use of history. Kenner objected to MacArthur’s criticism of the Catholic Church, and of Oneness Pentecostals (who deny the Trinity). And he concludes that MacArthur “has abandoned the task of discernment” in his condemnation of all sign gifts today.

I don't know if you knew this of Keener's approach to Scripture or where he stands on issues. But his interpretation of divorce seems to fit well into his interpretations of other biblical teachings (church discipline, gender roles, etc.).

So my question is why Keener?

 

[Yeshua1]

You have divorced your wife for no Biblical reason. You said so yourself. That is a HUGE problem.

Our Brother really needs to take down time, and allow the Lord to fully heal and restore him due to effects of divorce, as God will be able to get sinners saved without his aid for awhile I think!

How he entered into his marriage, and how he handles it gives me pause for any formal ministry for now!

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree that sometimes there can be a couple of interpretations without a clear cut solution. Good point.

Brother, I don’t want you to take me wrong here because I agree that Keener is an educated man and a scholar of the New Testament. But I keep wondering why Keener? He seems so far from your beliefs. I don’t mean this to be anti-Keener at all, but only to look at how he lines up with your interpretations and with the doctrines of your church because as a Charismatic he seems more in line with your ex-wife's church than yours (and you worked so hard finding this one).

Keener graduated with a BA from Central Bible College (“the Assemblies of God national university”), a M.A. and M.Div. from the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. from Duke University. He is a professor at Asbury, which is “rooted in the Wesleyan tradition” (which forms a part of their statement of faith).
Here are a few places that may highlight this difference in interpretation you mention:

Keener teaches that spiritual sign gifts such as the gift of tongues are for today (some Christians “contrary to 1 Corinthians 14:38,…despise the gift”).

Keener teaches that “those once converted could fall away.”

Keener teaches that God calls both men and women as pastors and leaders of the church. He dismisses what many would refer to as “gender roles” by explaining that Paul was implementing a “sort range solution”. What was happening, per Keener, is that these women were (due to their culture) uneducated and were teaching falsely. So Paul commanded a sort range solution – don’t let them teach, and a long range plan – let them learn, so that they could adequately become pastors, teachers, and leaders. He was, per Keener, liberating women and elevating them to that position which has traditionally been denied them.

You have spoken out against charismatics in the past (I remember you addressing this topic when we discussed the “Strange Fire conference”). Much of the issue was hermenutical approaches to Scripture. But Craig Keener is a charismatic. He even wrote a review of MacArthur’s book, Strange Fire, condemning MacArthur as “suppressing some biblical truth”, of having “clearly overstepped the bounds of reason” and his selective use of history. Kenner objected to MacArthur’s criticism of the Catholic Church, and of Oneness Pentecostals (who deny the Trinity). And he concludes that MacArthur “has abandoned the task of discernment” in his condemnation of all sign gifts today.

I don't know if you knew this of Keener's approach to Scripture or where he stands on issues. But his interpretation of divorce seems to fit well into his interpretations of other biblical teachings (church discipline, gender roles, etc.).

So my question is why Keener?

Agreed, as it seems that MOST of his beliefs would clash with most Baptists here on the Board!

 

[evangelist6589]

I agree that sometimes there can be a couple of interpretations without a clear cut solution. Good point.

Brother, I don’t want you to take me wrong here because I agree that Keener is an educated man and a scholar of the New Testament. But I keep wondering why Keener? He seems so far from your beliefs. I don’t mean this to be anti-Keener at all, but only to look at how he lines up with your interpretations and with the doctrines of your church because as a Charismatic he seems more in line with your ex-wife's church than yours (and you worked so hard finding this one).

Keener graduated with a BA from Central Bible College (“the Assemblies of God national university”), a M.A. and M.Div. from the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. from Duke University. He is a professor at Asbury, which is “rooted in the Wesleyan tradition” (which forms a part of their statement of faith).
Here are a few places that may highlight this difference in interpretation you mention:

Keener teaches that spiritual sign gifts such as the gift of tongues are for today (some Christians “contrary to 1 Corinthians 14:38,…despise the gift”).

Keener teaches that “those once converted could fall away.”

Keener teaches that God calls both men and women as pastors and leaders of the church. He dismisses what many would refer to as “gender roles” by explaining that Paul was implementing a “short range solution”. What was happening, per Keener, is that these women were (due to their culture) uneducated and were teaching falsely. So Paul commanded a sort range solution – don’t let them teach, and a long range plan – let them learn, so that they could adequately become pastors, teachers, and leaders. He was, per Keener, liberating women and elevating them to that position which has traditionally been denied them.

You have spoken out against charismatics in the past (I remember you addressing this topic when we discussed the “Strange Fire conference”). Much of the issue was hermenutical approaches to Scripture. But Craig Keener is a charismatic. He even wrote a review of MacArthur’s book, Strange Fire, condemning MacArthur as “suppressing some biblical truth”, of having “clearly overstepped the bounds of reason” and his selective use of history. Kenner objected to MacArthur’s criticism of the Catholic Church, and of Oneness Pentecostals (who deny the Trinity). And he concludes that MacArthur “has abandoned the task of discernment” in his condemnation of all sign gifts today.

I don't know if you knew this of Keener's approach to Scripture or where he stands on issues. But his interpretation of divorce seems to fit well into his interpretations of other biblical teachings (church discipline, gender roles, etc.).

So my question is why Keener?

Other scholars also hold to his view. Check out the book "remarriage a healing gift from God." Not sure of that authors perspective.

 

[evangelist6589]

I agree that sometimes there can be a couple of interpretations without a clear cut solution. Good point.

Brother, I don’t want you to take me wrong here because I agree that Keener is an educated man and a scholar of the New Testament. But I keep wondering why Keener? He seems so far from your beliefs. I don’t mean this to be anti-Keener at all, but only to look at how he lines up with your interpretations and with the doctrines of your church because as a Charismatic he seems more in line with your ex-wife's church than yours (and you worked so hard finding this one).

Keener graduated with a BA from Central Bible College (“the Assemblies of God national university”), a M.A. and M.Div. from the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. from Duke University. He is a professor at Asbury, which is “rooted in the Wesleyan tradition” (which forms a part of their statement of faith).
Here are a few places that may highlight this difference in interpretation you mention:

Keener teaches that spiritual sign gifts such as the gift of tongues are for today (some Christians “contrary to 1 Corinthians 14:38,…despise the gift”).

Keener teaches that “those once converted could fall away.”

Keener teaches that God calls both men and women as pastors and leaders of the church. He dismisses what many would refer to as “gender roles” by explaining that Paul was implementing a “short range solution”. What was happening, per Keener, is that these women were (due to their culture) uneducated and were teaching falsely. So Paul commanded a sort range solution – don’t let them teach, and a long range plan – let them learn, so that they could adequately become pastors, teachers, and leaders. He was, per Keener, liberating women and elevating them to that position which has traditionally been denied them.

You have spoken out against charismatics in the past (I remember you addressing this topic when we discussed the “Strange Fire conference”). Much of the issue was hermenutical approaches to Scripture. But Craig Keener is a charismatic. He even wrote a review of MacArthur’s book, Strange Fire, condemning MacArthur as “suppressing some biblical truth”, of having “clearly overstepped the bounds of reason” and his selective use of history. Kenner objected to MacArthur’s criticism of the Catholic Church, and of Oneness Pentecostals (who deny the Trinity). And he concludes that MacArthur “has abandoned the task of discernment” in his condemnation of all sign gifts today.

I don't know if you knew this of Keener's approach to Scripture or where he stands on issues. But his interpretation of divorce seems to fit well into his interpretations of other biblical teachings (church discipline, gender roles, etc.).

So my question is why Keener?

Whether or not we disagree on the Cal vs Armin debate, alcoholic beverages, eschatology, dancing, the sign gifts, women in ministry, or what not we must be united in the essentials of the faith. Keener is a believer but I disagree with his view in many areas. Keener argues for sound theology in the essentials and would also be against the progressive liberal churches that are all over Denver that deny essential Christian doctrine.

 

[TCassidy]

Keener argues for sound theology in the essentials and would also be against the progressive liberal churches that are all over Denver that deny essential Christian doctrine.

Does he also teach Lordship Salvation? You know, if a person claims to be saved but lives in sin, in open rebellion against God, abandoning his family (But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.) and committing a fraud against his wife by divorcing her without scriptural reason? Then cruises dating sites planning to commit adultery by marrying again even though his "divorce" was fraudulent?

You know. That type of Lordship Salvation you believe so strongly in?

 

[agedman]

Did Paul have a doctorate in NT theology?
How about The Lord Jesus Christ?

See, I hold to the Scriptures. I care very little over degrees that are used to support bad theology.

As an educator, I have known many unremarkable of the foolish sort who excuse all manner of evil.

Some may put great stock in and be puffed up by knowledge and learning, but the beginning of wisdom is to know God. One cannot truly know God and walk contrary to the Scriptures.

That humble servant of God, who has both the ear for God and more they have Gods ear, are truly great men of God. Such as George Muller, Hudson Taylor, Tyndall, Huss, Wycliffe, ... Not one had a doctorate in NT theology.

Not one would agree that divorce after consummation in the marriage was taught by The Scriptures.

 

[Jerome]

Other scholars also hold to his view. Check out the book "remarriage a healing gift from God."

Author Larry Richards passed away in October:

http://www.legacy.com/guestbook/DignityMemorial/guestbook.aspx?n=lawrence-richards&pid=181982107

His home church was North Raleigh United Methodist:

http://www.nrumc.org/pastors-staff/senior-pastor/

 

[evangelist6589]

Author Larry Richards passed away in October:

http://www.legacy.com/guestbook/DignityMemorial/guestbook.aspx?n=lawrence-richards&pid=181982107

His home church was North Raleigh United Methodist:

http://www.nrumc.org/pastors-staff/senior-pastor/

They are known to be liberal although I can't say all of them are liberal. Was this church? I will look in more detail later.

 

[annsni]

They are known to be liberal although I can't say all of them are liberal. Was this church? I will look in more detail later.

Well, there is a Mr. and Mrs. Pastor.

There is also no statement of faith on their website that I can find.

 

[JonC]

Other scholars also hold to his view. Check out the book "remarriage a healing gift from God." Not sure of that authors perspective.

Thanks for the recommendation. I am not going so far as to say that remarriage is forbidden. I do not believe that divorce is somehow the "ultimate sin", and I have seen far too often people who have been blessed by God with second marriages. I don't think that this is God's plan for marriage, but I believe it is going to far to say you can never marry.

I did read a few of Keener’s articles on the topic. I disagree with his method of reading Scripture. I can’t help but see his idea that Paul’s commands on these issues are merely short-term solutions applicable only temporarily to the few addressed as basically the same error as consigning select commands as addressing the culture contemporary to the first century church and therefore applicable only to those long dead.

What I do appreciate about Keener is that he has a fair amount of consistency to his view. This may be one problem that you may face, brother, is when it comes to other doctrines. If the hermeneutical approach is correct concerning divorce, then it is correct concerning other types of doctrines. We can’t switch to suit our conduct. What I mean is that we need to be consistent. You cannot hold the view of divorce you are currently stating and be consistent (honest in your method) without also applying that method of interpretation to other areas and commands (you won’t be able to deal honestly and still reject sexual immorality in the church, gender roles for church leadership, etc.).

I’m not trying to get into your business, but am just urging caution when it comes to changing your theology. You have seemed to lean towards Reformed Baptist a while now and I’m not sure that you are fully aware of the consequences of the hermeneutical approach you are considering. I am not sure that you can be consistent and remain the same kind of Baptist that you are now as this approach you are entertaining also allows for various modes of baptism other than literal immersion.

As always, I do wish you the best and am only trying to look ahead at things you may want to consider. I’ve seen many of my friends fall away from sound doctrine because they embraced what they thought was a minor change to accommodate something in their lives. Turns out that little tiny change was an escalator change. They tripped up and just kept on falling and falling and falling because one thing just led to another.

I probably won’t get that book because it is a subject of very little interest to me. I’ve been married for 27 years and have a good understanding of those passages in “question”. And if I don't know something I can just ask my wife and she will not hesitate to tell me . I do hope that you find peace in this situation.

 

[evangelist6589]

Thanks for the recommendation. I am not going so far as to say that remarriage is forbidden. I do not believe that divorce is somehow the "ultimate sin", and I have seen far too often people who have been blessed by God with second marriages. I don't think that this is God's plan for marriage, but I believe it is going to far to say you can never marry.

Thanks for this. God can and does bless people who divorce whether Biblical or not. As for me I think I am going to take it easy on the dating sites for a month. I need a break and I do believe I can be blessed by God with a second marriage. My wife was basically throwing me out of the house and getting very abusive verbally. I finally left and just finished the divorce process that she started with the separation. She is the one who initiated it I just finished it. So did I divorce her or did she divorce me? A good question.

 

[Salty]

Thanks for this. God can and does bless people who divorce whether Biblical or not.

AKA -- Permissive will of God

As for me I think I am going to take it easy on the dating sites for a month.

Well, at least this is a start -

I need a break and I do believe I can be blessed by God with a second marriage.

Why settle for second best - Do you believe that God can preform miracles?

My wife was basically throwing me out of the house and getting very abusive verbally.

Than pray for her.

I finally left and just finished the divorce process that she started with the separation. She is the one who initiated it I just finished it. So did I divorce her or did she divorce me? A good question.

You did the divorcing - unless you did something to stop the divorce.
Just wondering - the church she attends - What is her pastors stance on this?

 

[Jerome]

There is also no statement of faith on their website that I can find.

Unlike your independent nondenominational church, fellowshipping churches (like SBC, or UMC as here) will often just link to the national body for that kind of info.

Click the "Open Hearts/Open Minds/Open Doors - United Methodist Church" tile on the right.

 

[evangelist6589]

Unlike your independent nondenominational church, fellowshipping churches (like SBC, or UMC as here) will often just link to the national body for that kind of info.

Click the "Open Hearts/Open Minds/Open Doors - United Methodist Church" tile on the right.

Are they all as bad as the ones in Denver which deny essential christian doctrine?