Limited Atonement: Let's set the record straight.

[delizzle]

My "make 'em all robots" statement was in response to the statement "In heaven we will not be free to sin" -- no sin once we get to heaven because God does not allow them to choose sin.

So not a reference to the depravity state of the lost on this side of the 2nd coming.

If God were willing to simply mind-zap-everyone-to-not-sin then that solution should have been invoked the day before Lucifer made that historic bad choice.

Many theologians seem to suggest that even an omnipotent God has limitations. "By [God's omnipotence] we mean that God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power" (Erickson 1998, 247). There seem to be two types of limitations to God's omnipotence. First, God has natural limitations. He cannot do what is contradictory to His nature. God cannot lie (Titus 1:2), sin (James 1:13), deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:11-13) or force willful obedience (Matt. 23:37). In this case, the omnipotence of God does not mean that He can do anything. God’s omnipotence means that He can do anything that is possible (Geisler 2011, 37). As long as we have free will, God cannot force us to choose goodness. This coercion would be a contradiction that goes against his nature. C. S. Lewis states, "I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully, ‘All will be saved.' But my reason retorts, ‘Without their will, or with it?' If I say ‘without their will' I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say ‘With their will,’ my reason replies, ‘How if they will not give in?’” (Lewis 2001, 106-7).

Second, God can put limitations on himself by His choosing. The most notable of His self-imposed restrictions can be found in the incarnation. For it is written, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death – even death on a cross!” (Phil 2:6-8).

Without free will, the world would be void of any moral value. It is comparable to a wind up doll. By pulling the string, the toy robotically says, "I love you." However, this is merely a pre-programmed response which renders any value to be insignificant. Unlike the wind-up doll, when a spouse looks you in the eyes and says "I love you," the value lay in the fact they are willingly choosing to love. God is love, and it is God's desire that He is loved in return (1 John 4:8). However, one of the self-imposed limitations of God is that by giving humans free will, He cannot force us to return that love freely. C.S. Lewis states, “Merely to over-ride a human will…would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo” (Lewis 1976, 12).

 

[TCassidy]

Does that mean that Christians are incapable of choosing to sin?

Of course not. Even though we have the Holy Spirit empowered new nature, we also still have the old sinful fallen nature.

Or that Christians are incapable of rejecting Christ.

Unto perdition? No. They cannot sever the Father/Child relationship. Unto a loss of fellowship? Of course.

 

[delizzle]

Of course not. Even though we have the Holy Spirit empowered new nature, we also still have the old sinful fallen nature.

Unto perdition? No. They cannot sever the Father/Child relationship. Unto a loss of fellowship? Of course.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[BobRyan]

Many theologians seem to suggest that even an omnipotent God has limitations. "By [God's omnipotence] we mean that God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power" (Erickson 1998, 247). There seem to be two types of limitations to God's omnipotence. First, God has natural limitations. He cannot do what is contradictory to His nature. God cannot lie (Titus 1:2), sin (James 1:13), deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:11-13) or force willful obedience (Matt. 23:37). In this case, the omnipotence of God does not mean that He can do anything. God’s omnipotence means that He can do anything that is possible (Geisler 2011, 37). As long as we have free will, God cannot force us to choose goodness.

I agree with most of that -- but you said "As long as we have free will, God cannot force us to choose goodness" - which on the surface could include the idea that we have some intrinsic attribute which limits God.

But in fact - since God is the Creator it is more precisely "As long as God sovereignly determines that we must have free will, God cannot then force us to choose to love Him and Honor His Word"

Which is expressing it in terms of "logic" rather than an inability on God's part.

And in agreement with your statement in your post I would say that the highest form of love can only comes from a free-will being and not from a robotized being.

Second, God can put limitations on himself by His choosing.

I would argue that this is simply a restatement of the first case.

Without free will, the world would be void of any moral value.

Without free will there would be no sin... unless God Himself were evil or a sinner.

 

[BobRyan]

Of course not. Even though we have the Holy Spirit empowered new nature, we also still have the old sinful fallen nature.

Unto perdition? No. They cannot sever the Father/Child relationship. Unto a loss of fellowship? Of course.

Unless they are Adam or Eve or Lucifer or 1/3 of the Angels in heaven or all of mankind

 

[BobRyan]

An atheist I spoke with made a statement that even if there was a 0.0000000000001% chance that we could choose to sin while in heaven, given an infinite amount of time, the chances of us actually sinning is 100%.

Which only works if we are machines that over time would wear down.

But with intelligent beings "learning machines" where moral values deepen over time - the longer they imprint on one set of values - the more ingrained those values become. We see the older generations so married to what they have imprinted on that their grandchildren fail to understand why they cannot adopt to ever increasing relativism in society.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are an antinomian.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


Pharisees say....Y1 told us;
Gid does not command the lost to stop sinning, nor to clean up their act,

No, rather I am one who does not see the bible teaching anywhere that God wants the sinner to stop sinning and get cleaned up before coming to Christ to get saved, do you?
"Just as I am" song comes to mind here!

 

[Yeshua1]

His sovereign will is to have a free will universe.

Thus

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"O Jerusalem Jerusalem.. How I WANTED... but you would not" Matthew 23
"we BEG you on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5

Jesus will be ruling in an absolute sense, NONE will be able to resist His will, correct?

 

[Iconoclast]

No, rather I am one who does not see the bible teaching anywhere that God wants the sinner to stop sinning and get cleaned up before coming to Christ to get saved, do you?
"Just as I am" song comes to mind here!

No one was speaking of getting cleaned up....you made the statement....God does not command the Lost to stop sinning....
Do the 10 commands say......thou shalt not?...or do they say keep on sinning?
Look at what you tweeted. You gave no scripture to clarify whatever you might have been thinking.
Do you tell unsaved people that God does not command them to ...repent?....and believe?
That they do not need to turn away from sin?

 

[Yeshua1]

No one was speaking of getting cleaned up....you made the statement....God does not command the Lost to stop sinning....
Do the 10 commands say......thou shalt not?...or do they say keep on sinning?
Look at what you tweeted. You gave no scripture to clarify whatever you might have been thinking.
Do you tell unsaved people that God does not command them to ...repent?....and believe?
That they do not need to turn away from sin?

I was referring to stopping sinning as a requirement to be done before one can get saved...

 

[Iconoclast]

I was referring to stopping sinning as a requirement to be done before one can get saved...

You might have meant or intended to say that....but your one line tweet did not convey that.....did it????

 

[Yeshua1]

You might have meant or intended to say that....but your one line tweet did not convey that.....did it????

No it did not, thanks for allowing me to correct myself!

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus will be ruling in an absolute sense, NONE will be able to resist His will, correct?

No that is not correct.

Jesus could always command everyone's thoughts and force all to obey Him. If that was a solution He was willing to employ -- then no fall of Lucifer, no fall of Adam, no death on the cross.. no billions of souls cast into the lake of fire.

There will be no more sin because His solution is one of 6000 years of compelling evidence against rebellion such that free will beings will never choose rebellion again.

 

[delizzle]

I was referring to stopping sinning as a requirement to be done before one can get saved...

From my understanding, and correct me if I am wrong, that our "sin nature" or "original sin" is simply our desire to sin. When we are made "a new creation", it doesnt mean that we will not sin. Rather, it simply means that we would no longer desire to sin. So I don't think that it is necessary to "clean up our act" to be baptized. But an actually visible lifestyle change that demonstrates a shift away from sin and debauchery is a very helpful indicator that the person has truly repented and has a saving faith. Of course this is not necessarily a requirement. However, it is clearly evidence of the fruits of the spirit.

 

[The Archangel]

There will be no more sin because His solution is one of 6000 years of compelling evidence against rebellion such that free will beings will never choose rebellion again.

This is almost funny, if it weren’t so tragically wrong.

If you were correct, the Israelites who walked through the Red Sea on dry ground never would have made the Golden Calf.

The Archangel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Yeshua1]

No that is not correct.

Jesus could always command everyone's thoughts and force all to obey Him. If that was a solution He was willing to employ -- then no fall of Lucifer, no fall of Adam, no death on the cross.. no billions of souls cast into the lake of fire.

There will be no more sin because His solution is one of 6000 years of compelling evidence against rebellion such that free will beings will never choose rebellion again.

When Jesus returns, you think that any humans here will be able to resist what he wants them to be now doing?

 

[delizzle]

When Jesus returns, you think that any humans here will be able to resist what he wants them to be now doing?

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:10‭-‬11 NIV


When people actually see the Messiah return, nobody will be able to resist, reject, or deny Him. However, unfortunately when that day comes, it will be too late for many. We are saved by faith. Seeing God in his full glory requires no faith to believe. They believe and submit because the have seen not because they had any faith. After all...

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
Hebrews 11:1 NIV

 

[BobRyan]

Yeshua1 said: ↑
Jesus will be ruling in an absolute sense, NONE will be able to resist His will, correct?

Jesus could always command everyone's thoughts and force all to obey Him. If that was a solution He was willing to employ -- then no fall of Lucifer, no fall of Adam, no death on the cross.. no billions of souls cast into the lake of fire.

There will be no more sin because His solution is one of 6000 years of compelling evidence against rebellion such that free will beings will never choose rebellion again.

This is almost funny

That is one hyper hyper sense of humor...

The point in my comment above is so glaringly obvious that both Calvinists and Arminians immediately see the point. I could do that one all day long.

If you were correct, the Israelites who walked through the Red Sea on dry ground never would have made the Golden Calf.

Why? Is your argument that free will is "locked in" as soon as one good thing happens no matter how many challenges are ahead??

Now "THAT" is funny! Because as it turns out - we all live in "'real life" and Calvinism just does not play well in real life.

 

[BobRyan]

Yeshua1 said: ↑
Jesus will be ruling in an absolute sense, NONE will be able to resist His will, correct?

No that is not correct.

Jesus could always command everyone's thoughts and force all to obey Him. If that was a solution He was willing to employ -- then no fall of Lucifer, no fall of Adam, no death on the cross.. no billions of souls cast into the lake of fire.

There will be no more sin because His solution is one of 6000 years of compelling evidence against rebellion such that free will beings will never choose rebellion again.

When Jesus returns, you think that any humans here will be able to resist what he wants them to be now doing?

When Jesus returns -- all the wicked are destroyed as we see in Rev 19

And as for the saints - at the 2nd coming - (those resurrected and those surviving to that point in time)
1. They have already chosen to follow Jesus
2. There will be no more sin because His solution is one of 6000 years of compelling evidence against rebellion such that free will beings will never choose rebellion again.[/quote]

 

[The Archangel]

There will be no more sin because His solution is one of 6000 years of compelling evidence against rebellion such that free will beings will never choose rebellion again.

Your argument here is that the rebellion of saved sinners against God will end because of 6,000 years of compelling evidence??? Of what??? The futility of rebellion? That's what you're arguing? It's nonsense.

Why? Is your argument that free will is "locked in" as soon as one good thing happens no matter how many challenges are ahead??

Now "THAT" is funny! Because as it turns out - we all live in "'real life" and Calvinism just does not play well in real life.

Where in the entire story-line of scripture do you see people doing what you're suggesting? If the Israelites who witnessed the plagues in Egypt and crossed the Red Sea on dry ground and heard the voice of God Himself at Mt. Sinai still decided to make a Golden Calf, your idea as expressed above is simply laughable.

If those who were eyewitnesses to the greatness of God and His mighty works still rebelled (in various and long-standing ways) then it cannot be that just seeing "compelling evidence" will remove any rebellion from our hearts.

The Archangel