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Limited Atonement: Let's set the record straight.

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Yeshua1

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Ok. Now we can get back on track. The OP question that I specifically asked was regarding "Limited Atonement". Not particular redemption. Not universal atonement with limited application. I am talking about LIMITED ATONEMENT the "L" in "T.U.L.I.P". Which means that the ATONEMENT was limited to only the elect.

So when I said that limited atonement means Jesus only died for the elect, therefore, the Gospel only applies to the elect, how is that statement wrong?

It appears that even most 5 point Calvinists don't truly believe in all 5 points. In this case, limited atonement. And for the record, believing that the atonement is universal but limited in its application is a completely valid position. But call it what it is "universal atonement"!
Do you think that God intended that the lost were to be saved?
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
It sounds like he really believed in Limited Atonement and Limited Application.
Just as you do.

"The overwhelming majority of Christians who reject limited atonement also reject universal salvation. They are particularists, not universalists. They insist on the doctrine of justification by faith alone. That is, only believers are saved by the atonement of Christ.

"If that is so, then the atonement, in some sense, must be limited, or restricted, to a definite group, namely believers." *

So you, just like me, believe the Atonement is limited to believers.

*Biblical Scholasticism by R.C. Sproul, Ligonier Ministries.
Biblical Scholasticism by R.C. Sproul
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
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They tend to redefine a lot of things if it doesn't fit with their theology. When scripture says God wants "none" to parish and "all" to come to repentance, "all" and "none" can be redefined as "some" and "a few". Likewise, when "Limited Atonement" doesn't fit with scripture, they try to back track and redefine "Limited". When they say "Limited Atonement" what they really mean is "Universal Atonement".
Even going to hell is a sin in itself. Because God commands ALL MANKIND not to sin.

Within the Command he wants all in heaven.
 

Yeshua1

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Even going to hell is a sin in itself. Because God commands ALL MANKIND not to sin.

Within the Command he wants all in heaven.
God does NOT command sinners to stop sinning, He commands those who are to be saved to trust and lean wholly upon Jesus Christ!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
You are misunderstanding my argument. It isn't that I'm saying these actions aren't connected. They certainly are. I'm saying both actions are two sides of the same coin.

If that coin is "Atonement"

And one side is the work of Christ on the cross as sin offering
And the other side is the work of Christ as High Priest in Heaven as Hebrews 4,8,9 state along with Lev 16

so then two different phases of Christ's work -- separated by time

then "agreed" :)

You will be the first Calvinist I ever met willing to go that far along with Hebrews and "The Day of Atonement"

In the same way, the sacrifice of the lamb and the application of the blood were two distinct aspects of the same event.

Not the same "event"

Christ was not in heaven while on the cross.



You're assuming that Jesus makes a case-by-case application of His own blood when the priests on the Day of Atonement clearly did not.

1 Cor 5 says "Christ our Passover has been sacrificed" - Christ is not only the "sin offering" of the "Day of Atonement" he is ALL sin offerings for all the year both individual events and in the Passover and in the daily service and the end-of-year "Day of Atonement" sacrifice. They all collapse down into the One Sacrifice of Christ... ALL are covered.

Just as Christ's ministry as High Priest includes all the events and services all during the year - not just the "Day of Atonement" They all point to the work of Christ in heaven as High Priest -- His work covers all.
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Do you think that God intended that the lost were to be saved?

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"
"we BEG of you on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Just as you do.

"The overwhelming majority of Christians who reject limited atonement also reject universal salvation. They are particularists, not universalists. They insist on the doctrine of justification by faith alone. That is, only believers are saved by the atonement of Christ.

"If that is so, then the atonement, in some sense, must be limited, or restricted, to a definite group, namely believers." *

So you, just like me, believe the Atonement is limited to believers.

*Biblical Scholasticism by R.C. Sproul, Ligonier Ministries.
Biblical Scholasticism by R.C. Sproul

A perfect example of using the term "atonement" with an entirely different meaning than what delizzle is defining it to be.

You can't say "yes" or "no" to the point - without first agreeing on terms
 

delizzle

Active Member
So you, just like me, believe the Atonement is limited to believers.

You had me all the way up to this comment. The atonement is universal to all. People are in hell not because of their sin, but because they rejected Jesus (including the atonement of their sin).

Btw. I just wanted to say that I really do appreciate our conversations. I know it is frustrating at times. But I believe that these conversations are healthy. Trust me brother when I say that if we were neighbors, we would be having this conversation over some beer and bbq.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"
"we BEG of you on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
And what is keeping God from accomplish His sovereign will?
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What are you tweeting about this time? This is nonsense.
Gid does not command the lost to stop sinning, nor to clean up their act, he commands them to look upon Christ, to believe upon the name of the Son of God, period!
 

delizzle

Active Member
Gid does not command the lost to stop sinning, nor to clean up their act, he commands them to look upon Christ, to believe upon the name of the Son of God, period!
Could this be because their sins have already been atoned for?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
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Gid does not command the lost to stop sinning, nor to clean up their act, he commands them to look upon Christ, to believe upon the name of the Son of God, period!
You are an antinomian.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


Pharisees say....Y1 told us;
Gid does not command the lost to stop sinning, nor to clean up their act,
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
God does NOT command sinners to stop sinning, He commands those who are to be saved to trust and lean wholly upon Jesus Christ!

Not trusting and going against what Christ commands is a SIN too.

Matthew 5

19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I would argue this verse describes you.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
People are in hell not because of their sin, but because they rejected Jesus
So, rejecting Christ is not a sin? If it is not a sin, what is it, and was Christ wrong when He said in John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God?"

If rejecting Christ is a sin, then did Christ fail to pay the debt for all sin but left unpaid the sin of rejecting Him? And if so, how is that sin forgiven, as we have all rejected Him prior to accepting Him.
 
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