Limited Atonement

[Jarthur001]

Believing Calvinism is like believing that Christ is married to the "Stepford wives." They're all pre-programmed to do exactly what God "elected" them to do. Think of how glorious that is to Christ! Almost "takes your breath away" the worship offered irresistibly by ROBOTS, eh?

Love? As Dave Hunt points out, "What Love Is This?" It is a "one sided" tranasaction! It's like the joke we all laugh about. When the wife asks, "Do you love me?" Calvinism's Christ answers, "Hey, I married you didn't I?" :tear:

What more hate? What else you got?

 

[Jarthur001]

commentary on acts16:31

sorry...its not there. Try another book maybe. Or maybe a link

 

[Jarthur001]

Believe it or not -- I been there too! There ARE some passages that demand serious reflection/meditation. There a certain concepts that, on their face, sound right.

"Original sin," for instance. It's a great way to make God responsible for my status as a sinner and my automatic reprobation as God's "just" decision and my "fate" if I am predestined to reprobation.

NO! The facts are that I sinned and came short of the righteousness of God. And I MUST do something about that! God has done all that He can on my behalf at the cross. It's up to me now.

For those who do not believe this, I doubt if they belong on this BAPTIST board. If you did not affirm your responsibility for sin, die to self, and covenant with God through His Son, you're in the wrong place IMO.

skypair

no verses? to bad

 

[Jarthur001]

Indeed it does. And the ALL are about BELIEVERS who are brought back from backsliding -- first by Christ, second by the Holy Spirit, and, in the prodigal son, by the Father!! Does Christ leave 100 "goats" to find the one lost sheep? Does the Holy Spirit help the harlot find the one silver coin of her "proof of marriage?" Is the prodigal as son or a bastard? Go get your parables worked out and then come back and teach us.

skypair

I would be glad to take this up if you would like to start a thread.

 

[Amy.G]

And what if 5000 came?

Oh boy! I get to use a line from one of my favorite movies!

"You're gonna need a bigger boat". :laugh:

We were talking about the atonement, and if it is limited. Now we have moved into all of justification. I hope we get back to the atonement and if it is limited or not.

I didn't move anywhere. I was just responding to a post about Noah.

But being that we are where...lets talk

If we move into full justification we must address the all of it not just part.

Why was the grace given to Noah?

Noah is 1st said to have found grace in the eyes of God. Then he is righteous. Or do you believe Noah was right or good and this brought the eyes of God toward him..in other words Noah was good and stood out among others because he was good, so God choose him because he was good.

1Jo 3:12 not as Cain [who] was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Abel's works were righteous! Cain was rejected BECAUSE his works were wicked.

Gal 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Now, before you go saying that I am advocating a works based salvation, we need to remember what James says about faith and works.

Jam 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Abel's works were the evidence of his faith. Abraham's works were evidence of his faith.

God is sovereign and I do NOT deny that, but it is clear that God declared these men righteous because of their faith in Him. They had faith before God chose them.









Why was Abraham choosen? Good works? God came to Abraham. why?



No one came...and God knew only those he chose would come.

Lets say there was a man name Joe Chin that lived about 200 miles from Noah. Could God have talked with Joe from heaven? Could God have saw fit to move on the heart of Joe and ask him to build another ark just as God did Noah? I'm sure you will say yes.

Did God? No.

Why?


The Bible says ALL of mankind was evil Noah was part of mankind. But Noah found grace. Why?



Is that not the T in TULIP?

 

[Jarthur001]

Oh boy! I get to use a line from one of my favorite movies!

"You're gonna need a bigger boat". :laugh:

God did not think of this before?

I didn't move anywhere. I was just responding to a post about Noah.

We moved from Noah having a boat that only holds a few to Why did Noah have faith.

1Jo 3:12 not as Cain [who] was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Abel's works were righteous! Cain was rejected BECAUSE his works were wicked.

Gal 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Now, before you go saying that I am advocating a works based salvation, we need to remember what James says about faith and works.

James is talking about the evidence of a faith. A fruit tree gives off fruit.

However, this is not the same as saying a person is saved because OF his good works.

So I ask again, was Noah given grace based on him being good?

Abel's works were the evidence of his faith. Abraham's works were evidence of his faith.

Yes...I agree.

So why did God come to Abraham and pick him if the works started after the faith came?

And why did God pick Abel when the good works were just the evidence that he already had faith?

God is sovereign and I do NOT deny that, but it is clear that God declared these men righteous because of their faith in Him.

I would agree. But what made them righteous? Their works or Gods grace?

They had faith before God chose them.

How do you get this?

Take Abraham.

Why was Abraham choosen? Good works? If so, show me the verse.
God came to Abraham. why?


The Bible says ALL of mankind was evil Noah was part of mankind.
But Noah found grace. Why?

 

[Amy.G]

They all found grace because they believed God. Their works were proof of their faith.

We are saved the same way. By the grace of God, through our faith. If you believe God, you will receive His grace (salvation).

 

[Jarthur001]

They all found grace because they believed God. Their works were proof of their faith.

We are saved the same way. By the grace of God, through our faith. If you believe God, you will receive His grace (salvation).

And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Before Abram was saved...why did God come to Abram? Ur had no worship of the true God. For some reason God choose to come and tell Abram to leave his country. Based on what? What faith did he have before God came to him?

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Both entries came out of Calvins Commentaries. The first one 1Jn2:2 The second was even copied and pasted out of Acts 16:31. This is on Ages software and you can get ALL of Calvins works for 14.95$ downloaded.

 

[Jarthur001]

Both entries came out of Calvins Commentaries. The first one 1Jn2:2 The second was even copied and pasted out of Acts 16:31. This is on Ages software and you can get ALL of Calvins works for 14.95$ downloaded.

You mean that software. You need to even pay that price. Here is a free link....

http://www.biblestudyguide.org/comment/calvin/comm_index.htm

What is said that Calvinist would not believe?

31. Believe in the Lord Jesus. This is but a short, and, to look to, a cold and hungry definition of salvation, and yet it is perfect to believe in Christ. For Christ alone hath all the parts of blessedness and eternal life included in him, which he offereth to us by the gospel; and by faith we receive them, as I have declared, (Acts 15:9.) And here we must note two things; first, that Christ is the mark 7 whereat faith must aim; and, therefore, men's minds do nothing else but wander when they turn aside from him.
Therefore, no marvel if all the divinity of Popery be nothing else but an huge lump 8 and horrible labyrinth; because, neglecting Christ, they flatter themselves in vain and frivolous speculations. Secondly, we must note, that after we have embraced Christ by faith, that alone is sufficient to salvation. But the latter member, which Luke addeth by and by, doth better express the nature of faith, Paul and Silas command the keeper of the prison to believe in the Son of God. Do they precisely stay in this voice [word] only? Yea, it followeth in Luke, in the text, [context,] that they preached the word of the Lord. Therefore, we see how the faith is not a light or dry opinion concerning unknown things, but a plain and distinct knowledge of Christ conceived out of the gospel. Again, if the preaching of the gospel be absent, there shall no faith remain any longer. To conclude, Luke coupleth faith with preaching and doctrine; and after that he hath briefly spoke of faith, he doth, by way of exposition, show the true and lawful way of believing. Therefore, instead of that invention of entangled faith, whereof the Papists babble, let us hold faith unfolded in the word of God, that it may unfold to us the power of Chris

t.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

This is salvation plain and simple, not 1300 pages of tract and theology an unsaved person must read understand and sign legal documents that they understand the aforementioned tract/book
before they are saved. On this board that has been referred to as easy believism.

 

[TCGreek]

Christ accomplished what he came to accomplish. And neither did he limit his atoning sacrifice.

 

[Jarthur001]

This is salvation plain and simple, not 1300 pages of tract and theology an unsaved person must read understand and sign legal documents that they understand the aforementioned tract/book
before they are saved. On this board that has been referred to as easy believism.

Bill, I'm afraid I misunderstood your post from the start. I felt like you was saying as you did about 1 john 2 that Calvin had changed his views on limited atonement. This of course is not true as has been shown.

However, much of what you said I would agree with. I do think that some that hold to the so called easy-believism are wrong. Repeating a prayer does not save a person. The heart must be changed by the Holy Spirit.

Salvation is very simple. It is all in the hands of God.

 

[skypair]

Why was the grace given to Noah?

Um, didn't God look down and see that only Noah was "pure in his generations?" Yes, I believe that after examining the situation in which "all men did only sin continually," He did find one family that "qualified" according to obedience to receive grace.

That's kinda our situation too, James. We "come" obediently and He gives us grace.

You also asked about Abraham. You posted he was made right, because he believed. All are made right just as he was. But what brought Abraham to the point he even knew about God?

Why was Abraham choosen? Good works? God came to Abraham. why?

Who else might God have "come" to? Do you know?

And what does Heb 11 have to say about the situation? "By faith, Abraham when he was called to go out ... obeyed..." Faith is merely "belief put into action." By faith Abraham obeyed. Get this: He "heard" the promises in Ur -- he obeyed -- he received the promises (grace) in Canaan.

So, do you want to be saved? Quicken your "belief" by "obedience" and receive the promises.

Could God have saw fit to move on the heart of Joe and ask him to build another ark just as God did Noah? I'm sure you will say yes.

Did God? No.

Why?

And so begins another episode of "Fractured Calvinism Tales." :laugh:

The Bible just got through saying that no one else was obedient to God -- pure. Noah was the only one qualified, James. Care to "make another run at" that storyline?

skypair

 

[pinoybaptist]

Christ accomplished what he came to accomplish. And neither did he limit his atoning sacrifice.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, brother.
are you saying the atonement is universal and unlimited ?

 

[Amy.G]

Righteousness (of Christ) is not accounted to anyone without faith.
God saw Noah and Abraham as righteous because they had faith. He did not declare them righteous apart from their faith.

Calvinism as I understand it, says that man is regenerated first and then faith is excercised. This is not what the Bible says.

 

[MB]

However, much of what you said I would agree with. I do think that some that hold to the so called easy-believism are wrong. Repeating a prayer does not save a person. The heart must be changed by the Holy Spirit.

Salvation is very simple. It is all in the hands of God.

Salvation is easy and that lable will never change that truth. Here's How easy it is.

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Calvinism must deny this inorder for the tulip to make any sense. The tulip is complicated and made so by men who didn't believe it could be so simple.

They claimed no one could believe unless regenerated, and elected before creation and predestined to be Saved. They made election particular so that even Calvinist could not be sure he trully was saved. They limited atonement to that particular elect when scripture could not be more clear that Christ came to save the lost.
Then they condemn the sinners prayer. When sinners don't usually know how or what to pray. They deny that God uses us Christians to lead others to Christ. Even leading them in a prayer of confession that is unto Salvation.

What really bothers me is that most Calvinist actually hate the sinners prayer. I've asked myself why they hate it so. The only conclusion I can make is that they hate it because they themselves could not do it them selves. It convicts them and like all sinners who will not come to Christ they come to hate it because of that conviction.

The objection to the sinners prayer is nothing less than hatred of the truth. A denial of a conviction to confess publically.

Whosoever's can be saved by confession to Christ and of Christ. It's submission to His righteousness if they trully mean what is repeated in that prayer they are led in.

MB

 

[pinoybaptist]

Righteousness (of Christ) is not accounted to anyone without faith.
God saw Noah and Abraham as righteous because they had faith. He did not declare them righteous apart from their faith.

Calvinism as I understand it, says that man is regenerated first and then faith is excercised. This is not what the Bible says.

John Wesley, who can hardly be called a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination, writes of Ephesians 2:1 which says "and you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

And he hath quickened you - In the nineteenth and twentieth verses of the preceding chapter, St. Paul spoke of God's working in them by the same almighty power whereby he raised Christ from the dead.

On the mention of this he, in the fulness of his heart, runs into a flow of thought concerning the glory of Christ's exaltation in the three following verses.

He here resumes the thread of his discourse. Who were dead - Not only diseased, but dead; absolutely void of all spiritual life; and as incapable of quickening yourselves, as persons literally dead. In trespasses and sins - Sins seem to be spoken chiefly of the gentiles, who knew not God; trespasses, of the Jews, who had his law, and yet regarded it not, Ephesians 2:5. The latter herein obeyed the flesh; the former, the princeof the power of the air.

Please take note of the formatted texts, and compare it with what you said, or are trying to say, that an unregenerate man, dead in sins and trespasses, whether Jew or Gentile, is capable of producing faith that pleases God enough for God to regenerate him, in accordance with Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him".

The same Wesley says of Ephesians 2:8 which states "for by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"

By grace ye are saved through faith - Grace, without any respect to human worthiness, confers the glorious gift. Faith, with an empty hand, and without any pretence to personal desert, receives the heavenly blessing. And this is not of yourselves - This refers to the whole preceding clause, That ye are saved through faith, is the gift of God.

Regeneration is an act of the Holy Spirit intended for those whom Christ redeemed. If faith comes first before regeneration, then Christ went up on that cross to save sinners who had faith and will have faith in Him, therefore faith becomes the pre-condition on which Christ saves.

Salvation, whether it is of the one that Christ secured for all the elect children of God who are in both sides of the soteriological spectrum, or whether it is of the type which one secures for himself in this plane we call time through obedience to the gospel, is always of grace, the latter by grace (of God) through faith (in Charist).

(I'm still groggy from a 9 hour drive from Buffalo to DC. if this was not presented coherently, please accept my apologies).

 

[pinoybaptist]

Salvation is easy and that lable will never change that truth. Here's How easy it is.

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Calvinism must deny this inorder for the tulip to make any sense. The tulip is complicated and made so by men who didn't believe it could be so simple.

They claimed no one could believe unless regenerated, and elected before creation and predestined to be Saved. They made election particular so that even Calvinist could not be sure he trully was saved. They limited atonement to that particular elect when scripture could not be more clear that Christ came to save the lost.
Then they condemn the sinners prayer. When sinners don't usually know how or what to pray. They deny that God uses us Christians to lead others to Christ. Even leading them in a prayer of confession that is unto Salvation.

What really bothers me is that most Calvinist actually hate the sinners prayer. I've asked myself why they hate it so. The only conclusion I can make is that they hate it because they themselves could not do it them selves. It convicts them and like all sinners who will not come to Christ they come to hate it because of that conviction.

The objection to the sinners prayer is nothing less than hatred of the truth. A denial of a conviction to confess publically.

Whosoever's can be saved by confession to Christ and of Christ. It's submission to His righteousness if they trully mean what is repeated in that prayer they are led in.

MB

As one who also adheres to the principles outlined in TULIP, I would like to say that when I first converted from atheism they led me to a room and showed me the Roman way and made me recite the Sinner's Prayer and then double-checked to see if I undertood what happened and then triple-checked to make sure that I understood what I just prayed.

I nodded to all the questions, and the only reason was because I wanted to get out of there as quick as I can and get home, and read the Bible and about Jesus on my own . I had nothing in my heart for the sinner's prayer, neither did I care about the Roman road (though having been an Arminian/semiPelagian I did learn to memorize it).

My conviction came from the Holy Spirit, and so did my early understanding of who Christ is, who I am, and what He did in my behalf. I do not think there are Calvinists here who hate the sinner's prayer, per se, in the sense of how we understand the word "hate".

You ask yourself why (according to you) Calvinists hate the sinner's prayer, and you come to your conclusion based on your answers to your own questions. Have you asked a Calvinist on this board why, or any Calvinist you may know personally ? Maybe you'd find out much better if you do why they reject the sinner's prayer. From threads I've read here about the sinner's prayer, I seem to recall some of those who spoke their opinion against it were not even Calvinists.

Besides, the topic of this thread is limited atonement, not salvation.

 

[MB]

As one who also adheres to the principles outlined in TULIP, I would like to say that when I first converted from atheism they led me to a room and showed me the Roman way and made me recite the Sinner's Prayer and then double-checked to see if I undertood what happened and then triple-checked to make sure that I understood what I just prayed.

I nodded to all the questions, and the only reason was because I wanted to get out of there as quick as I can and get home, and read the Bible and about Jesus on my own . I had nothing in my heart for the sinner's prayer, neither did I care about the Roman road (though having been an Arminian/semiPelagian I did learn to memorize it).

My conviction came from the Holy Spirit, and so did my early understanding of who Christ is, who I am, and what He did in my behalf. I do not think there are Calvinists here who hate the sinner's prayer, per se, in the sense of how we understand the word "hate".

You ask yourself why (according to you) Calvinists hate the sinner's prayer, and you come to your conclusion based on your answers to your own questions. Have you asked a Calvinist on this board why, or any Calvinist you may know personally ? Maybe you'd find out much better if you do why they reject the sinner's prayer. From threads I've read here about the sinner's prayer, I seem to recall some of those who spoke their opinion against it were not even Calvinists.

Besides, the topic of this thread is limited atonement, not salvation.

Those who love darkness also hate the light neither do they come to the light.

Atonement is not Salvation, although you can't have one with out the other both parts of the greater whole.

Sorry the truth offended you. I'm really sorry you couldn't wait to get out of that room but after thinking about it I don't believe I would have went in to a room with any one. I'm not sure why they took you to another room. Were they ashamed you came forward? Or maybe they believed that you have to accept Christ in priviate. You see a public confession shows you are not ashamed.

I walked down that isle and got on my knees before God with everyone who might have been interested looking on. I'm not ashamed. Myself I didn't want to leave the church that day. I received peace, joy and rest for my weary soul The whole world looked different to me. Nothing was ever going to be the same and hasn't ever been the same since.
MB