Limited Atonement

[Allan]

Allan, you are so articulate in espousing your views.

One of your comments refers to the "world" as all sinful and wicked men." In this instance, I think that view of "world" does not help your argument, since it is a direct allusion to those whose sins God will not impute to them.

You cannot have men going to Hell whose sins God will not impute to them. That leave the only alternative that I can see--that indeed, all sinful and wicked men do not have their sins imputed to them, have been reconciled and will go to heaven. In other words, universalism.

We both know that that can't be, since in v.20 Paul is beseeching people to be reconciled. That suggests, of course, that some are not yet reconciled, and it is clear that the scripture teaches that some never will be.

I believe this reinforces my argument that "world" cannot mean all men without exception, but all men without distinction .

Now, if I understand what you said, God, in Christ, reconciled the world, but some are not yet reconciled--such reconciliation completed through repentance and faith. If I've misunderstood, I trust you'll help me get it straight.

But this leave another problem--the rest of those whom God in Christ has reconciled, whose sins God will not impute to them, yet they are yet unreconciled to God. One might argue that they will, with certainty, eventually come to repentance and faith, and complete the reconciliation. That is, all wicked and sinful men (the world). I doubt if you want to argue that.

Or, one might argue that God, in Christ, has reconciled those would repent and believe--in God's mind, a completed event, therefore their reconciliation was a certainty from eternity. I doubt if you'd argue this either.

So we are left with your well-articulated argument, which I believe falls short in its efforts to separate the world from those whose sins are not imputed to them.

I would encourage you to go back are re-read post #90 because the argument you build for yourself to tear down is not the argument I gave at all.

As for the term 'world' - see post #91

 

[webdog]

By grace...... through faith...... it is the gift.... Just what was it that I said that disagrees with scripture.

I am not sure what your second and third sentences refer too. Do you object to the statement that we are saved through faith, and that some call it faith that saves or saving faith.

Even most mainline calvinists with knowledge of greek disagree that faith is the gift being mentioned in Ephesians 2. Salvation is the gift being mentioned. There is a faith that saves, but there is no mysterious saving faith only given to a select group. You will not find such a "saving faith" anywhere in Scripture.

 

[Rippon]

Even most mainline calvinists with knowledge of greek disagree that faith is the gift being mentioned in Ephesians 2. Salvation is the gift being mentioned.

Some Reformed theologians who believe that faith is being referenced in Ephesians 2:8 :
Harold Hoehner,Peter O'Brien,D.A.Carson, Thomas Schreiner,Robert Reymond, Robert Duncan Culver,and James Boice ( preacher/theologian).

"Most mainline Calvinists with a knowledge of Greek" do not maintain your view.

 

[jdlongmire]

Even most mainline calvinists with knowledge of greek disagree that faith is the gift being mentioned in Ephesians 2.

This type assertion is normally substantiated with a few references.

 

[webdog]

Even most mainline calvinists with knowledge of greek disagree that faith is the gift being mentioned in Ephesians 2. Salvation is the gift being mentioned.

Some Reformed theologians who believe that faith is being referenced in Ephesians 2:8 :
Harold Hoehner,Peter O'Brien,D.A.Carson, Thomas Schreiner,Robert Reymond, Robert Duncan Culver,and James Boice ( preacher/theologian).

"Most mainline Calvinists with a knowledge of Greek" do not maintain your view.

...then somenone doesn't know how to read Greek properly.

 

[webdog]

This type assertion is normally substantiated with a few references.

It's been referenced too many times to count here. Do a search.

 

[Rippon]

...then somenone doesn't know how to read Greek properly.

So Mr.Dog, you wish to correct these scholars, some of whom specialized in the book of Ephesians?! Please furnish a list of Reformed scholars who deny that faith is the gift in Ephesians 2:8. ( Never mind the fact that it is considered a gift or grant of God in other passages).

 

[HankD]

So Mr.Dog, you wish to correct these scholars, some of whom specialized in the book of Ephesians?! Please furnish a list of Reformed scholars who deny that faith is the gift in Ephesians 2:8. ( Never mind the fact that it is considered a gift or grant of God in other passages).

For the sake of the discussion concerning the far reaching ramifications of Ephesians 2:8 (apart from the identity of the gift), does a gift or "grant" necessarily have to be accepted?

HankD

 

[HankD]

Or to ask a similar question:

Is a "gift" actually a "gift" if the intended recipient has been programmed with an irresistable predisposition to receive it?

HankD

 

[Rippon]

Or to ask a similar question:

Is a "gift" actually a "gift" if the intended recipient has been programmed with an irresistable predisposition to receive it?

HankD

Let's put it this way -- all who receive the gifts of faith and repentance will "accept". There is no turning back. The same thing applies to Drawing in John 6 . It's always toward saving union with Christ."All the Father gives will come". Every single one who receives faith is united to Christ.None are left behind.

 

[Jarthur001]

Or to ask a similar question:

Is a "gift" actually a "gift" if the intended recipient has been programmed with an irresistable predisposition to receive it?

HankD

If opening the eyes of the blind sinner is what you called programmed, then yes.

irresistable grace (not predisposition) however, does not mean people do not resist salvation. They do resist it over and over again. But when the blindness is removed and the sinner sees for the very 1st time that he needs the work of Christ for salvation, grace becomes irresistable grace. He is not forced to be saved, but will have it no other way and takes the gift that God has given him, that gift mainly is the opening of the eyes in order to see and thereby have faith to believe.

 

[HankD]

If opening the eyes of the blind sinner is what you called programmed, then yes.

irresistable grace (not predisposition) however, does not mean people do not resist salvation. They do resist it over and over again. But when the blindness is removed and the sinner sees for the very 1st time that he needs the work of Christ for salvation, grace becomes irresistable grace. He is not forced to be saved, but will have it no other way and takes the gift that God has given him, that gift mainly is the opening of the eyes in order to see and thereby have faith to believe.

Thank you.

I personally don't like the phrase "irresistable grace". It seems to make us automatons, but (if I did have calvinistic tendencies) prefer "pre-disposed to grace".

But then we would have a "tuldp".

No, that won't work either since you see from my previous posts I also don't subcribe to "Limited Atonement" (as defined by calvin/calvinists).

Obviously from Scripture there is a limit to those who are/will be born-again.

I believe "limited election" would work better but still isn't quite right.
Maybe something like a limitation of mercy:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion".​

HankD

 

[skypair]

So Mr.Dog, you wish to correct these scholars, some of whom specialized in the book of Ephesians?! Please furnish a list of Reformed scholars who deny that faith is the gift in Ephesians 2:8. ( Never mind the fact that it is considered a gift or grant of God in other passages).

It's quite obvious that Calvinism's is an "interpretation of convenience," rip.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Let's just ask you --- is it "grace"/salvation that is "not of works?" or "faith" that is "not of works?"

Before you answer, do you notice that Eph 2:9 is using the very same antecedent when it speaks of "not of works" as 2:8 does when it speaks of "the gift?" So, can we "work" for grace? for salvation? No. Can we work for faith? Sure! 2Pet 1:5-7 is just one litany of things we can do to grow in faith and knowledge. In fact, in the "Faith Chapter" (Heb 11), God Himself ties the faith of the saints to their works. They are inextricably connected just as in the epistle of James.

So it is clearly "grace" that is the "gift of God" and "not of works," rip. And "grace" is achieved "through faith" that invariably "works." Which means that before "grace," there is "confess with thy mouth and believe in thine heart" -- a faith that works.

skypair

 

[HankD]

It's quite obvious that Calvinism's is an "interpretation of convenience," rip.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Let's just ask you --- is it "grace"/salvation that is "not of works?" or "faith" that is "not of works?"

Before you answer, do you notice that Eph 2:9 is using the very same antecedent when it speaks of "not of works" as 2:8 does when it speaks of "the gift?" So, can we "work" for grace? for salvation? No. Can we work for faith? Sure! 2Pet 1:5-7 is just one litany of things we can do to grow in faith and knowledge. In fact, in the "Faith Chapter" (Heb 11), God Himself ties the faith of the saints to their works. They are inextricably connected just as in the epistle of James.

So it is clearly "grace" that is the "gift of God" and "not of works," rip. And "grace" is achieved "through faith" that invariably "works." Which means that before "grace," there is "confess with thy mouth and believe in thine heart" -- a faith that works.

skypair

But then are even those works our own?

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.​

HankD​

 

[HankD]

If opening the eyes of the blind sinner is what you called programmed, then yes.

irresistable grace (not predisposition) however, does not mean people do not resist salvation. They do resist it over and over again. But when the blindness is removed and the sinner sees for the very 1st time that he needs the work of Christ for salvation, grace becomes irresistable grace. He is not forced to be saved, but will have it no other way and takes the gift that God has given him, that gift mainly is the opening of the eyes in order to see and thereby have faith to believe.

I guess I didn't exactly address your comment which you answered anyway.

If it is the opening of the eyes then why the need for term "irresitable" grace?

God's grace is God's grace.

Thanks bro
HankD

 

[Jarthur001]

I guess I didn't exactly address your comment which you answered anyway.

If it is the opening of the eyes then why the need for term "irresitable" grace?

God's grace is God's grace.

Thanks bro
HankD

i have no idea, other then it fits the flower, which at times causes problems. But, most people only read the labels thinking they know their meaning, and never read to understand what the writers meant when they picked these labels.

The best reading is efficacious grace as you may know.

 

[Jarthur001]

But then are even those works our own?

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.​

HankD​

I just wrote on this passage this week...

The Workmanship in grace

 

[skypair]

But then are even those works our own?

You're asking "Are 'faith works' our own?" Yes. We are always going to do something in this life, HankD. It will either be good or bad. When we do good, we are basically trusting in God's "instructions" by faith. But we clearly and always have the option and that is what makes them our works, not God's directly.

God working directly would assume that we have no choice -- we are puppets --and that is a huge burden that Calvie theology (in its utter confusion) seemingly gladly bears. :tear:

skypair

 

[skypair]

I just wrote on this passage this week...

The Workmanship in grace

Well, James -- I like your delineation of "justification" and "sanctification." My main thought is that if we are saved by "grace THROUGH FAITH," then there must be some kind of sign of faith before we receive grace, no? Some kind of act or reaction to God that makes grace our own? Unreponsive faith is merely "wishful thinking," is it not.

It would be like Abram hearing God and thinking, "Gee, I hope what He said is true," but then leaning back in his recliner and watching Ur TV -- waiting for God to do all the "faith works."

Maybe that night they are running a special "Jesus and the Cross." So he watches it and, at the end, says, "Wow! That's exactly what happened. Christ died for me! I'll have to remember that little factoid if it turns out I'm elect.

What am I saying! God has already contacted me. I AM elect!! Glory, glory!! I can't wait to see God giving me the promised land. I wonder when that will happen."

Did YOU see any faith in that account of Abram? No. Faith is attached to the command "get thee up" just like faith is attached to the command to "confess with thy mouth and [or, what you] believe in thine heart." There is a certain day that is the beginning of eternity with God and it starts with an obedient response to God's call -- which IS faith.

skypair

 

[stilllearning]

Hi skypair


You did it.

I kept watching, as you and HankD(and others) discussed back and forth, getting closer and closer to “the truth”:
And you have reached the crucial question and answer......

“You're asking "Are 'faith works' our own?" Yes. We are always going to do something in this life.......”

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Many have dropped out of this thread(pages ago), saying “nothing good can come of it”, but your persistence has paid off.

Thank you.

Oh by the way, every bodies a winner, in this kind of discussion!

This is the greatest thing, that this site can do.
Allow people, to hash something out, until we get to the bottom of it.
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But please, don’t stop on my account.

There is still more clarification to come!