Limited Atonement

[HankD]

Hi skypair


You did it.

I kept watching, as you and HankD(and others) discussed back and forth, getting closer and closer to “the truth”:
And you have reached the crucial question and answer......
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Many have dropped out of this thread(pages ago), saying “nothing good can come of it”, but your persistence has paid off.

Thank you.

Oh by the way, every bodies a winner, in this kind of discussion!

This is the greatest thing, that this site can do.
Allow people, to hash something out, until we get to the bottom of it.
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But please, don’t stop on my account.

There is still more clarification to come!

Hi stilllearning.

I look at it this way.

When my children were young and at home I used to hear them talk about their possessions (shoes e.g.) as "Daddy look at my shiny shoes".

Actually they were Daddy's shoes because I had worked for them and bought them with the fruits of my labor.

So it is with everything we have, we call them ours but they really belong to loving Father who purchased both them and us.

HankD

 

[stilllearning]

Hi HankD

You wrote.........

“I look at it this way.

When my children were young and at home I used to hear them talk about their possessions (shoes e.g.) as "Daddy look at my shiny shoes".

Actually they were Daddy's shoes because I had worked for them and bought them with the fruits of my labor.

So it is with everything we have, we call them ours but they really belong to loving Father who purchased both them and us.”

My point exactly.

See the kind of wonderful analogies, that are produced, when we hash things out.

We find out, that we aren’t really that far apart, after all!

 

[skypair]

Hi skypair


You did it.

I kept watching, as you and HankD(and others) discussed back and forth, getting closer and closer to “the truth”:
And you have reached the crucial question and answer......!

hy thank you, stilllearning. :thumbs:

Now if I could just point out to them that they aren't "regenerated" before they have faith, that would about "cap off" the discussion. But they seem to think that they are "born again" prior to faith (something Abraham never was so how did he get saved to begin with?).

James has brought the issues of justification and sanctification to our attention. But without recognizing the diffference between soul and spirit, he cannot seem to apply those "processes" in his salvation model.

It is simple! We must be justified with God in our souls before we are sanctified by the Spirit in our spirit. This is another way of saying that Abraham is justified and will be sanctified by the Spirit (actually, resurrected by the Spirit) in the MK.

We, on the other hand, are justified with God first through our "faith confession" and immediately indwelt/"resurrected" by the regenerating Holy Spirit afterward.

James story of justification in the article was correct. We can't work for God (sanctification, Spirit indwelt) until we are hired by God (justified, have faith). I am surprised with that insight that he doesn't abandon Calvinism's reverse imagery of that.

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

James has brought the issues of justification and sanctification to our attention. But without recognizing the diffference between soul and spirit, he cannot seem to apply those "processes" in his salvation model.

1st why do you say i do not know the difference being I have never stated my views. A bit presumptuous on your part maybe?

2nd What proof do you have of a difference?

3rd Unless you can show reason, knowing the difference if there is a difference, if these two are not the say, has nothing justification.

James story of justification in the article was correct. We can't work for God (sanctification, Spirit indwelt) until we are hired by God (justified, have faith). I am surprised with that insight that he doesn't abandon Calvinism's reverse imagery of that

.
What Calvinist do you know that preaches a person must WORK before they are saved? This is but another foolish post. It is done either to start a fight, or you do not have a clue, nor can you listen to others.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi skypair

You said something that brought some clarification, to my mind.......

“It is simple! We must be justified with God in our souls before we are sanctified by the Spirit in our spirit.”

As for your words.....

“the Spirit in our spirit.”

I don’t believe, that at any time, any of us have “two Spirits”:
(The moment that we are saved, our old Spirit[Adam’s spirit], is removed and replaced with God’s Holy Spirit
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But what you statement did remind me of was....
Although I believe in predestination, and election(because they are both in the Bible), what I am seeing with many calvinists is a propensity to cut out the middle man, and go straight from an unsaved condition, to being Glorified in heaven.

Sure enough, we are elected for salvation: But just because we are going to get saved, doesn’t negate the necessity for us to:
(1) Be witnessed to, and hear the Gospel:
(2) And then to respond to the Gospel by accepting it:
(3) Which is what brings about regeneration and all the rest.
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On another thread, while talking about infant baptism, I have been seeing this same kind of thinking........
That somehow, God has created some kind of a system, where “personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”, is no longer required, for a person to be qualified for heaven.

Yes, there are “qualifications”, for going to heaven;
And even though “God” already knows, which one of us, are going to fulfill those qualifications, doesn’t mean, that those qualifications are no longer important!

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Jarthur001

You said.......

“1st why do you say i do not know the difference being I have never stated my views. A bit presumptuous on your part maybe?
2nd What proof do you have of a difference?
3rd Unless you can show reason, knowing the difference if there is a difference, if these two are not the say, has nothing justification.”

I take it, from this statement, that you don’t believe that the soul and Spirit, are separate entities, within each of us.

Well here is what the Bible has to say about it........

Luke 1:46-47
V.46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
V.47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

2 Corinthians 1:22
“Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”

1 Thessalonians 5:23
“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Hebrews 4:12
“For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

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Was this, what you meant to say?

 

[HankD]

What does is matter if faith precedes the rebirth and brings the ability to believe or vice versa if both faith and the rebirth are from God?


Or what if they are simultaneous?

Or why not just be happy that our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life (or does someone want to take issue with that statement? - you know, like He only said it to the apostles who were Jews living while He was in the flesh here on earth).


HankD

 

[nunatak]

What does is matter if faith precedes the rebirth and brings the ability to believe or vice versa if both faith and the rebirth are from God?

Because this question is at the core of the Calvinism/Arminianism debate.

 

[Allan]

Because this question is at the core of the Calvinism/Arminianism debate.

Not necessarily as there are also 5 point Calvinists who hold to faith preceding regeneration as well. One BB member (that I recall off hand) who is a staunch Calvinist but who holds this particular view is Pastor Larry (who is also a Moderator).

 

[webdog]

Not necessarily as there are also 5 point Calvinists who hold to faith preceding regeneration as well. One BB member (that I recall off hand) who is a staunch Calvinist but who holds this particular view is Pastor Larry (who is also a Moderator).

That is correct.

I'm not sure how a 5 pointer can come to that conclusion, though.

 

[nunatak]

Perhaps. But what follows is a quote from Monergism:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.

In either case, the primary difference seems to be, outside of the election issue, whether faith precedes or succeeds regeneration.
Thus while there may be one-offs who disagree with this, the basic issue seems to be the faith before/after regeneration question.

 

[Allan]

Perhaps. But what follows is a quote from Monergism:



In either case, the primary difference seems to be, outside of the election issue, whether faith precedes or succeeds regeneration.
Thus while there may be one-offs who disagree with this, the basic issue seems to be the faith before/after regeneration question.

We can agree to disagree here but again I have to disagree with it being a 'core issue' but one that is relegated to a secondary issue. Whether before or after is not on the fore-front of the debate. Yes, it comes into play and I believe it is a necessary part that glues either theological view together but not the predominate one. If you look up various debates over the centuries this is not a core peice in the line up. I do agree with you though that it is an important piece to understand in order to come to the next theological step in ones view. The truth is even amoungst Calvinists it is a debatable topic. Many believe one can be regenerated for years and even decades before one is saved. Some believe that the regeneration/faith are almost instantanious that you can not know which comes first except via a logical assumption based upon their theological perspective.

He might be right one the Arminian camps view but I might make an adjustment here and there. However I will dispute the "Arminian's camp" ordo salutis in the fact that he lumps all non-cals in with them when in fact they differ greatly theologically. For some odd reason Calvinists haven't figured out there are other groups outside of the Arminian view but continue to lump all of them together. Just because a group might hold to 1 or 2 aspects of their view no more make them Arminian than holding to two aspects of Calvinism makes them a Calvinist. You have to be a pure blood (at least all five points) to be a Calvinist but you only need to hold to 1 point to be called an Arminian.

But I will correct the ordo salutis to illistrate the "typical" Non-Cal position:
1) Election [of God's family], 2) Predestination [being comformed to the image of His Son], 3) Gospel Call, 4) Work of the Holy Spirit, 5) Faith & repentence, 6) regeneration, 7) Justification, 8) Sanctification, 9) Glorification, (Rom 8: 29-30)

BTW - Most Non-Cals believe # 5 and 6 to be practacally instantanious with one another.

 

[HankD]

Because this question is at the core of the Calvinism/Arminianism debate.

And therein is the root of the contention.

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


KJV 1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

I said in a previous post that the core issue is the manner of some of the contenders in the debate of calvinists/arminians more than Calvin/Arminius or their tenants.

HankD
​

 

[skypair]

1st why do you say i do not know the difference being I have never stated my views. A bit presumptuous on your part maybe?

I know Calvinists.

2nd What proof do you have of a difference?

Heb 4:12 says that the word of God can "divide them asunder."

3rd Unless you can show reason, knowing the difference if there is a difference, if these two are not the sa[me], has nothing [to do with] justification.

It certainly does! It is obvious that you DON'T see any difference on account of your responses #1 and #3!

Calvies will admit something is "dead" on account of sin. It is the SOUL! What Calvies don't know or even investigate is that the SPIRIT/BRAIN is still ALIVE --- responsive. You can still consider ANY proposition based on its merits and make a DECISION, right? The decision of the spirit ORIENTS the soul/conscience, either to hardening or to softening to God.

What Calvinist do you know that preaches a person must WORK before they are saved?

I am certainly NOT accusing Calvies of "working" for salvation! In fact, they may be doing too little -- less than necessary -- on that count. They think "faith" is "free grace, don't they? They think they are "born again"/regenerated without any personal commitment at all, right? Did my story of Abram's faith generate any animus in you? or did you feel comfortable about my characterization of Abram?

skypair

 

[skypair]

I don’t believe, that at any time, any of us have “two Spirits”:
(The moment that we are saved, our old Spirit[Adam’s spirit], is removed and replaced with God’s Holy Spirit

Well, I don't think it is that extreme a change. And my reasoning is that we don't behave perfectly "ever after," do we?

Here's my paradigm -- see if you agree. It might be close to what you are saying. Our SOUL/conscience becomes the throne of God, not self. If our spirit (intellect, emotins, or will) even thinks about sinning, there is always that conscience of GOD that tells us it is wrong. We may do it anyway but, like Adrian Rogers said, the sinning saint is the most unhappy person in creation!! The soul and spirit -- the intentions and the motivations -- are divided (Heb 4:12). This is SO critical to understanding the human condition!

BTW, perhaps we only disagree because your paradigm is like Adrian Rogers. He saw that spirit as conscience and the soul as mind, emotions, and will. I just feel like the better model is soul = conscience = seat of God or self and spirit = intellect/emotions/will = our "link" with God's mind. I hope this isn't too confusing. I think basically we agree but you may be using another model.

But what you statement did remind me of was....
Although I believe in predestination, and election(because they are both in the Bible), what I am seeing with many calvinists is a propensity to cut out the middle man, and go straight from an unsaved condition, to being Glorified in heaven.

You have a good point here. In my view, they "skip" justification and go straight to "sanctifying" those who agree with their theology (who are presumed to be "elect"). Sanctified is the 2nd phase of salvation -- glorified is the 3rd. But I see you are asserting Rom 8:30 and so agree with your view as well.

Sure enough, we are elected for salvation: But just because we are going to get saved, doesn’t negate the necessity for us to:
(1) Be witnessed to, and hear the Gospel:
(2) And then to respond to the Gospel by accepting it:
(3) Which is what brings about regeneration and all the rest.

"Elected to salvation" is problematic. Though God knows who will believe, He does not predestinate to salvation. Do you see the difference? It is this: believers' lives are "predestinated" all the way through sanctification into glory! But that most critical element, justification, it up to us.

On another thread, while talking about infant baptism, I have been seeing this same kind of thinking........
That somehow, God has created some kind of a system, where “personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”, is no longer required, for a person to be qualified for heaven.

Wow! You're "spot on" with that observation! And there is no "other Way," is there?

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

I know Calvinists.

Well for maybe the 1st time you are right. To bad this cannot be said about other things you say we hold. But don't give up. You have done it once, I'm sure you can learn more if you try.
However, this doctrine is not held but just by Calvinist. All camps fall on both sides of this issue. I hardly talk about it and I'm sure I have never shared my views on here.

Now what you will find is this. This doctrine of a threefold constitution of man can be traced back to being Plato, was introduced partially into the early Church. But the better part of the church claimed it was heretical. I feel heretical is a bit strong, so I would not go that far. The threefold constitution of man was held by the Gnostics and Apollinarians. Semi-Pelagians taught that the soul and body, but not the spirit in man were the subjects of original sin.

All Protestants, Reformers, maintained that the soul and spirit, are one and the same substance and essence.

Calvies will admit something is "dead" on account of sin. It is the SOUL! What Calvies don't know or even investigate is that the SPIRIT/BRAIN is still ALIVE --- responsive.

Do I need to show you the tons of verse that interchange the two words soul and spirit? Did you get this off of Rodges too? Rodgeits need to read more of the Bible on their own and stop trusting in Mr Rodgers

I am certainly NOT accusing Calvies of "working" for salvation! In fact, they may be doing too little

to little? How much work do you feel is needed for salvation?

They think "faith" is "free grace, don't they?

Yes

They think they are "born again"/regenerated without any personal commitment at all, right?

You are mixing your words with ours. The new born is the opening of eyes, but one believes after they know and understand the gospel. It is you that believes they are one and the same.

Personal commitment ....are you talking about Lordship? Yes

 

[stilllearning]

Hi skypair

You said.......

"Elected to salvation" is problematic. Though God knows who will believe, He does not predestinate to salvation. Do you see the difference?”

I don’t see the problem:

Romans 8:29-30
V.29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
V.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

As you can see, Romans 8:29-30 says that God(by His foreknowledge), predetermined who He was going to call, for justification(salvation).

And 1 Peter 1:2 says, that God(by His foreknowledge), elected or chose, those individuals, who were going to be saved.
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What is wrong, with saying that we are "Elected to salvation"?

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi skypair
I don’t see the problem:


As you can see, Romans 8:29-30 says that God(by His foreknowledge), predetermined who He was going to call, for justification(salvation).

And 1 Peter 1:2 says, that God(by His foreknowledge), elected or chose, those individuals, who were going to be saved.
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What is wrong, with saying that we are "Elected to salvation"?

Hello stilllearning.

Of course there is nothing wrong with saying that when it is clear this is what Scripture say.

1 Peter 1

Greeting

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,


To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him

2 Thessalonians 2:13

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 Corinthians 1
30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

2 Timothy 2
4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier

Isaiah 43
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

 

[Rippon]

The truth is even amoungst Calvinists it is a debatable topic. Many believe one can be regenerated for years and even decades before one is saved.

No, I'm not letting this one pass. "Many Calvinists"?! Name just one.This view is not mainstream Calvinism."Many" is way off the proverbial mark.You need to back that assertion up with documentation.

 

[Rippon]

"Elected to salvation" is problematic. Though God knows who will believe, He does not predestinate to salvation.

Rip : God merely got the memo ( a title of one of my most memorable threads) you're saying. Of course that is so sub-biblical of you.

But that most critical element, justification, it up to us.

Nuggets of nonsense. Brought to courtesy of Sp.