This is not taught in the Bible and moreso it's an oxymoronic statement.
In your view, God cannot elect you until you first elect God.
Such a statement makes you god, and Jesus becomes dependent upon you.
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Limited Autonomus Will
- Thread starter Van
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In your view, God cannot elect you until you first elect God.
Such a statement makes you god, and Jesus becomes dependent upon you.
If it’s truly free will how is it limited?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Even a free gift has to be accepted.
No, it doesn't. A gift given is a gift given regardless of what the person does with the gift.
You keep glorifying the receiver of the gift as the most important part of the process, giving them all the power and authority. Why is the receiver more powerful than the giver in your theology? What in scripture shows your view to be accurate?
The idea we are free to choose from among available options is consistent with our experience. Scripture tells us God sometimes restricts our options, i.e. hardening the hearts of some such that they will reject the gospel, i.e. Romans 11.
We can harden our own hearts by the practice of sin. And God can harden hearts for His purpose, such as Romans 11. God can choose a person well on the way of hardening his own heart, and complete the process. Scripture does not rule any of the three out.
Some say whatsoever comes to pass is predestined to occur. Therefore God is the author of sin. Then some others say while it is true that God to be sovereign must predestine everything, that does not make God the author of sin. Rational minds object.
Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate. The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.
Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see Romans 9), including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.
Our ability to make choices from a among various options can be restricted by God for His purpose, thus the Biblical doctrine is "Limited Autonomous Will."
Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.
So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God
"The absence of free will is, however, devastating to all theists since without it you cannot choose to be evil or good, and therefore deserve neither punishment nor salvation."
So the complete absence of free or autonomous will is irrational and unrestricted free will is unbiblical. Some assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.We can harden our own hearts by the practice of sin. And God can harden hearts for His purpose, such as Romans 11. God can choose a person well on the way of hardening his own heart, and complete the process. Scripture does not rule any of the three out.
Some say whatsoever comes to pass is predestined to occur. Therefore God is the author of sin. Then some others say while it is true that God to be sovereign must predestine everything, that does not make God the author of sin. Rational minds object.
Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate. The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.
Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see Romans 9), including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.
Our ability to make choices from a among various options can be restricted by God for His purpose, thus the Biblical doctrine is "Limited Autonomous Will."
Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.
So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God
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The topic is the biblical doctrine of Limited Autonomous Will, we can choose within the purview allowed by God. The lost cannot choose to understand spiritual solid food (meat) because it takes the indwelt Spirit of God to discern those truths.
Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it!
For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.The "it" in Romans 9:16 refers to receiving mercy and compassion. Receiving "it" does not depend "on the person who wants [mercy and compassion] or on the person who "runs" [does things to obtain mercy and compassion].
Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved. The men who will and/or run are those seeking salvation. Thus Romans 9:16 teaches that some people seek salvation proving "total spiritual inability" is unbiblical.
Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it!
For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.The "it" in Romans 9:16 refers to receiving mercy and compassion. Receiving "it" does not depend "on the person who wants [mercy and compassion] or on the person who "runs" [does things to obtain mercy and compassion].
Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved. The men who will and/or run are those seeking salvation. Thus Romans 9:16 teaches that some people seek salvation proving "total spiritual inability" is unbiblical.
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
In "On Grace and Free Will," (see especially chapters II-IV) Augustine states:
"He [God] has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in man a free choice of will," and that "God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards." (On Grace and Free Will, chap. II) Augustine
"...for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made." (Justin, First Apology, XLIII)
"...unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be." (Justin, First Apology, XLIII)
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Yes, salvation depends on God's choice alone. You should know that!! But you should also do that some lost people will to be saved and do works to be saved, which means "Total Spiritual Inability" is unbiblical as taught by Romans 9:16. Why can you not see the obvious?
Off topic ploy to identify the source then claim the source is not valid. Pay no attention to someone who cannot support a position and so engages in obfuscation.
Honestly, are you reading what you write? Can you not see how completely "not obvious" you're being? Of course you cannot. You're here with double speak, attempting to make up mean down and down mean up.
*Romans 9:14-16*
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
When you read the word "not" do you imagine it reads "on"?
How you get to your assertion from Romans 9:16 is one of the great mysteries that no one but you can see.
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