Limited Free Will

[agedman]

I have already demonstrated how your view conflicts with many scriptures and my view meshes with all scripture. So your request, rather than presenting how we could live not as a chosen people, if we were chosen individually before creation, is simply deflection.

So rather then taking the Scriptures at face value, you conform them to your preconception.

How is that righteous when you claim others, who in your view do such, are “deflecting” or “obfuscation” or some other statement in which you claim your view is superior and the one ”everyone knows (as) presenting the truth”?

 

[Van]

So rather then taking the Scriptures at face value, you conform them to your preconception.

How is that righteous when you claim others, who in your view do such, are “deflecting” or “obfuscation” or some other statement in which you claim your view is superior and the one ”everyone knows (as) presenting the truth”?

Yet another off topic against the man post. Twaddle

 

[agedman]

2 Thessalonians 2:13

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.​

First question:

What is the Spiritual estate of the folks Paul is addressing?
Chosen and saved, transferred into Christ on the basis of God credited faith in Christ.​

​

Agreed they are the redeemed.

Next question:

When did God choose?
During their physical lifetime, 1st century, after they lived not as a chosen people.​

​

“...God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation ...”

Here the beginning is neither the church nor the start of the individuals, life but the time “God loved the World.”

Next question:

What was God’s choice?
God chose the addressees, the Thessalonians, the "you" in the verse for the purpose of salvation by setting the person apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, on the basis of their God credited faith in Christ.
​

Agreed. In that you actually made it to the individual “person apart.”

So, how is this different than what the doctrines of Grace teach?

I don’t see your review as disproving as you claim.

Perhaps you could lay out what exactly in the words disproves a doctrine of grace.

 

[Van]

​

Agreed they are the redeemed.

“...God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation ...”

Here the beginning is neither the church nor the start of the individuals, life but the time “God loved the World.”

Agreed. In that you actually made it to the individual “person apart.”

So, how is this different than what the doctrines of Grace teach?

I don’t see your review as disproving as you claim.

Perhaps you could lay out what exactly in the words disproves a doctrine of grace.

1) Not at issue.

2) From the beginning refers to from the beginning of what:
a) most likely, when the gospel was brought to Thessalonica.
b) Next would be the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood.
Since no one was transferred into Christ until after He died on the cross, earlier meanings are precluded.

3) Once again, the verse says we were individually chosen for salvation through faith in the truth,. a conditional election, not an unconditional election which is one of the doctrines you assert.

 

[agedman]

The verse says Christ "bought" those never to be saved, thus the substitutionary sacrifice provides the propitiation or means of salvation for those never to be saved, all of mankind.

Non issue, only those God puts in Christ are reconciled to God. None of those above assertions asserts limited atonement.

​

The verse teaches Christ "bought" everybody thus pertains to the fact Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation of means of salvation for the whole world of fallen mankind.

The Scriptures teach that purchase was made by the blood (Acts 20). And as we agree the blood was shed for all, The Who of humankind.

The Scriptures state that often the Christ was called “master” and that every knee will bow.

Peter could rightly use “denying the master who bought them” with it not attaining to what you desire.

There was no salvation in the blood, but both the death and resurrection. Even then does not Paul state that if Christ wasn’t raised faith is vain.

Blood for all.

Death and resurrection benefit believers only.

So, knowing this how does this verse refute the doctrines of grace.

 

[agedman]

1) Not at issue.

2) From the beginning refers to from the beginning of what:
a) most likely, when the gospel was brought to Thessalonica.
b) Next would be the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood.
Since no one was transferred into Christ until after He died on the cross, earlier meanings are precluded.

3) Once again, the verse says we were individually chosen for salvation through faith in the truth,. a conditional election, not an unconditional election which is one of the doctrines you assert.

Unconditional election applies to individuals who are chosen based upon nothing of value, but according to the unmerited favor and His purpose.

This is also what you state in, “we were individually chosen for salvation through faith in the truth.”

Where there seems to be disagreement is in the time the choice is made. You would place the choice at a different time, but the timing placement does nor refute the basic fact that “individuals (are/where) chosen for salvation.”

I don’t see the cause for the claim of refutation you make.

Perhaps you will point more concisely in what part this verse refutes a doctrine of grace point of election of which is undeserved, unmerited (through faith and truth as you claim) and the unconditional election that acknowledges Belief comes not by merit and is not deserved.

 

[Van]

More nonsense, more obfuscation.
The choice is made on the basis of our faith in Christ as credited by God as righteousness.

I have posted more times than I can count we were chosen corporately before creation and individually during our life, after we had lived not as a [chosen] people.

That we are individually chosen for salvation is not in dispute. The basis of our election is in dispute and the timing of our individual election is in dispute.

 

[Van]

The Scriptures teach that purchase was made by the blood (Acts 20). And as we agree the blood was shed for all, The Who of humankind.

The Scriptures state that often the Christ was called “master” and that every knee will bow.

Peter could rightly use “denying the master who bought them”

There was no salvation in the blood, but both the death and resurrection. Even then does not Paul state that if Christ wasn’t raised faith is vain.

.

Rather than discussion the topic of the thread, you drag in one falsehood after another to obfuscate.

Christ became the means of salvation when He died. The resurrection proves God accepted His sacrifice. If Christ did not rise from the dead, our faith is in vain. However, recall the thief who would be in paradise the day He died. This is three days before His resurrection.

 

[Van]

Limited Free will springs from our limited spiritual ability, our soul liberty to choose to believe in Christ. We can understand the milk of the gospel and be "persuaded" to believe wholeheartedly in Christ, or we can reject Him or only partially accept Him.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[Wesley Briggman]

... only partially accept Him.

Can you describe the results of "partial acceptance" of Jesus Christ as Savior?

Please provide scriptural reference also.

This is new doctrine to me.

 

[agedman]

Rather than discussion the topic of the thread, you drag in one falsehood after another to obfuscate.

Ok, I tried again to build bridges based upon certain agreement of Scripture.

What does the portrayal display when one attempts to build bridges of agreement on Scripture in which quotes from your own posts are used and agreement is shown still is told, “...you drag in one falsehood after another to obfuscate.“

I am sorry you get obfuscated so easily!

Let me ask if these are not factual by Scripture authority:

• The blood was shed for all sin of all time for all creation?
• The death and resurrection of Christ benefits only believers.
• Salvation is by the unmerited favor of God to individuals.
• Faith comes as a gift by the work of the Holy Spirit using the Word of God.
• God is love and therefore has prepared a place of keeping for both the condemned and redeemed.
• Unredeemed humankind have free will that extends to knowing how to give good gives, but has no ability as any other fallen estate to be considered worthy of God’s favor.
• Only the redeemed and yet alive are truly freed to exercise choice of this word and make bold appeal before the creator.
• The redeemed are a complete new creation including all aspects pertaining to being “like Him” and yet the old will seeks to “war” against the new will of belief.

There are more that could be stated, but it is enough that these facts are found in Scripture, are not “falsehood” and are not “obfuscation” of the threads many posts.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

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