Limited Free Will

[Reformed1689]

Unconditional Election is blown out of the water by 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore people attempt to "alter the text" to rewrite scripture to avoid the truth of conditional election.

13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

The case is closed, our individual election for salvation was conditional, through faith in the truth.

Broken record. You continually dodge the issue. I get it, you don't have an answer. At least have the honesty to say so.

but more likely "beginning" refers to when the gospel was first brought to Thessalonica

Based on?

 

[Van]

Broken record. You continually dodge the issue. I get it, you don't have an answer. At least have the honesty to say so.
Based on?

I am sorry, but if you are incapable of addressing the topic, limited free will springing from our limited spiritual ability to put our own faith in Christ, why post at all. Against the man arguments are a waste and a logical fallacy.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Exo 23:31 KJV - And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.

My first impression is that God is sovereign! There is no reason to believe He was concerned about breaching the "freewill" of the inhabitants of the land or the "freewill" of those He commanded to drive them out! (Ya think the freewill of the inhabitants were the same?? I doubt it!)

Deu 3:2 KJV - And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.

Jdg 4:7 KJV - And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.

Jdg 10:13 KJV - Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more.

Jdg 20:28 KJV - And Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, stood before it in those days,) saying, Shall I yet again go out to battle against the children of Benjamin my brother, or shall I cease? And the LORD said, Go up; for to morrow I will deliver them into thine hand. (Phinehas exercised his freewill and decided not to "go up". Ye think so?)

Eph 2:1 KJV - And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; (That's not fare! I have freewill! NOT!)

 

[Reformed1689]

I am sorry, but if you are incapable of addressing the topic, limited free will springing from our limited spiritual ability to put our own faith in Christ, why post at all. Against the man arguments are a waste and a logical fallacy.

I AM ADDRESSING THE TOPIC. You are deflecting because you don't want to address the topic.

 

[agedman]

Yet another "taint so" post offering no alternate view.

1) No one was transferred into Christ before He died on the cross.
2) From means since or after when used temporally.
3) Some suggest "the beginning" refers to creation, but more likely "beginning" refers to when the gospel was first brought to Thessalonica. Or to expand it a bit, from the beginning of the New Covenant.
4) Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Summary, we were chosen from the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood which was shed on the cross, for salvation through faith in the truth.

“Yet another "taint so" post offering no alternate view.”.

 

[Van]

“Yet another "taint so" post offering no alternate view.”.

Sorry but points 2, 3, 4 and the Summary provide the "alternate view."
Your post, OTOH, offered nothing but an against the man argument.

 

[agedman]

Sorry but points 2, 3, 4 and the Summary provide the "alternate view."
Your post, OTOH, offered nothing but an against the man argument.

“Yet another "taint so" post offering no alternate view.”.

 

[agedman]

Van, I do not mean to mock, but to demonstrate how reposting the same thing adds nothing to the discourse. It matters not if the post is true or not, Repeating a post without new information serves only to distance folks from engagement. It does not present support, nor build thoughtful consideration.

 

[Van]

Van, I do not mean to mock, but to demonstrate how reposting the same thing adds nothing to the discourse. It matters not if the post is true or not, Repeating a post without new information serves only to distance folks from engagement. It does not present support, nor build thoughtful consideration.

Yet another off topic, against the man post. If a bunch of off topic posts like yours above are posted, I sometimes repost a content filled post to refocus the thread because of all the subject change posts, like this one.

Everyone knows I present truth (as I see it) and you guys post obfuscation.

Matthew 23:13 shows your "T" and your "I" are bogus.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 shows your "U"is bogus
2 Peter 2:1 shows your "L" is bogus, Christ died for everybody.

And OTOH, not one of your verses actual say what you claim, such as Ephesians 1:4, and Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[agedman]

Yet another off topic, against the man post. If a bunch of off topic posts like yours above are posted, I sometimes repost a content filled post to refocus the thread because of all the subject change posts, like this one.

Really?

I have also redirected a tread, but never reposting the same post, without first calling attention to the OP, and even then usually suggesting another train of consideration.

Did view yours as anything more than lost argument obstinacy that is generally from one desperate. We parents of children have occasionally seen it in the home, as educators we witnessed it in interactions, as witnesses, we have seen in stubborn rejection of truth, in old age I’ve seen it in desperate clinging because of fear about no longer having youthful vitality.

I will try to remember that you use it to redirect to the OP.

 

[Van]

Another reason to repost is when the content part is ignored to deflect into a change of subject. Limited free will means we have limited spiritual ability, able to understand and respond to the milk of the gospel, but not the solid spiritual food.
This capacity is demonstrated by the following verses:

Matthew 23:13 shows your "T" and your "I" are bogus.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 shows your "U"is bogus
2 Peter 2:1 shows your "L" is bogus, Christ died for everybody.

And OTOH, not one of your verses actual say what you claim, such as Ephesians 1:4, and Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[agedman]

Limited free will is what the Scriptures present as the condition of one unredeemed.

Noah was told and preached of the coming flood. The folks were free to hear, but not to heed. Because God had already pronounced the command of judgment.

The prophets declared, the people heard, but not to heed, Because God had already pronounced the command of judgment.

The people heard the words of Christ, but did not heed. God had blinded there eyes and ears because He had already pronounced the command of judgment.

The lost may hear words, but are condemned by the command of judgment.

Without the direct and purposed work of the Holy Spirit bring both hearing and faith (Romans) there is no cry of belief.

The condition of unredeemed is “already condemned.” Depravity is complete, all self ability and self choice is lost in those words “condemned already.”

Throughout history, God has selected and preserved what is referred to as “the remnant.” Like a skilled quilt maker, God takes the remnants and blends them into purposed use of His choice. It is then the remnants become higher priced than the common. The remnants are chosen. The remnants are trimmed, and repurposed to fit together to make the whole recognizable as one of a kind.

God makes all, but God selects from the all to make that unique from the remnants.

Factories churn out great lengths in broad rolls what will ultimately be discarded. However, the beauty of the quilt made from remnants remains as a part of the family, an adopted heirloom.

 

[agedman]

Perhaps it would be wise to produce your view of Ephesians 1 and 2 and demonstrate how wrong the view you oppose.

 

[agedman]

Matthew 23:

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.​

First question:

What is the kingdom of heaven to the Jews?​

Next question:

How was access gained to the kingdom of heaven for the Jews?​

Next question:

What is the typical thinking concerning the kingdom of heaven for the Gentiles?​

Next question:

How is access to the kingdom of heaven for the Gentiles?
​

Last question:

Which leadership was the Lord Jesus Christ addressing, Jews or Gentiles.​

Moving on now that your view has been revealed as inaccurate, to your next verse offered as proof.

 

[agedman]

2 Thessalonians 2:13

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.​

First question:

What is the Spiritual estate of the folks Paul is addressing?
​

Next question:

What does Paul call these folks?
​

Next question:

Where and when did God choose?​

Next question:

What was God’s choice?
​

Next question:

How was that choice established and at what time?​

Now that your view was shown unacceptable let’s look upon your final offering.

 

[agedman]

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
​

Has nothing to do with limited atonement, much less with limited belief in which I hold.

What I hold the Scripture teaches (in part):

• The blood was shed for all sin of all creation.
• Blood shed for sin is not an automatic get out of hell free condition..
• The Scriptures state the death and resurrection were specific to the benefit of believers.
• Those that believe shall not see death but pass through (from) physical vitality into eternal vitality.
• Those that do not believe are already condemned.

2 Peter 2:1 does not pertain to this question of soteriology.

​

 

[Van]

Limited free will is what the Scriptures present as the condition of one unredeemed.

The condition of unredeemed is “already condemned.” Depravity is complete, all self ability and self choice is lost in those words “condemned already.”

Here we have the bogus claim that being unsaved, condemned already because of unbelief, this means total spiritual inability. Note no explanation provided as to how the condemned already men of Matthew 23:13 were in the process of entering the kingdom. It is just a redefinition of a phrase to conform to bogus doctrine.

 

[Van]

Perhaps it would be wise to produce your view of Ephesians 1 and 2 and demonstrate how wrong the view you oppose.

I have already demonstrated how your view conflicts with many scriptures and my view meshes with all scripture. So your request, rather than presenting how we could live not as a chosen people, if we were chosen individually before creation, is simply deflection.

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.​

First question:

What is the Spiritual estate of the folks Paul is addressing?
Chosen and saved, transferred into Christ on the basis of God credited faith in Christ.
​

Next question:

When did God choose?
During their physical lifetime, 1st century, after they lived not as a chosen people.​

Next question:

What was God’s choice?
God chose the addressees, the Thessalonians, the "you" in the verse for the purpose of salvation by setting the person apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, on the basis of their God credited faith in Christ.
​

 

[Van]

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
​

Has nothing to do with limited atonement, much less with limited belief in which I hold.

The verse says Christ "bought" those never to be saved, thus the substitutionary sacrifice provides the propitiation or means of salvation for those never to be saved, all of mankind.

What I hold the Scripture teaches (in part):

• The blood was shed for all sin of all creation.
• Blood shed for sin is not an automatic get out of hell free condition..
• The Scriptures state the death and resurrection were specific to the benefit of believers.
• Those that believe shall not see death but pass through (from) physical vitality into eternal vitality.
• Those that do not believe are already condemned.

Non issue, only those God puts in Christ are reconciled to God. None of those above assertions asserts limited atonement.

​

2 Peter 2:1 does not pertain to this question of soteriology.

The verse teaches Christ "bought" everybody thus pertains to the fact Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation of means of salvation for the whole world of fallen mankind.