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Limited Free Will

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Reformed1689

Reformed1689

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Van said:
1) Your claim 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not mean what it says is without merit.
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I didn't go against what the verse says. I show precisely what it says.
Van said:
2) Your claim basic grammar supports your view is utterly false.
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Guess you need to go to grammar school then.

Van said:
3) We are chosen for salvation by the Spirit setting us apart in Christ based on God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
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Except that's not what Scripture says.

Van said:
4) We were chosen, from the beginning of the New Covenant through faith in the truth.
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Where in the world do you get this from?

Van said:
5) We are chosen through, or on the basis of our God accredited faith in Christ.
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So this amounts to a works-based salvation. We are saved based on something we do. That is works-based.

Van said:
6) The "Gift of Faith" doctrine is bogus, without support in scripture.
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Ephesians 2:8
 
V

Van

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davidtaylorjr said:
I didn't go against what the verse says. I show precisely what it says.
Guess you need to go to grammar school then.
Except that's not what Scripture says.
Where in the world do you get this from?
So this amounts to a works-based salvation. We are saved based on something we do. That is works-based.
Ephesians 2:8
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We were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth.
Nouns are not verbs.
Just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 folks.
If our faith merited or earned salvation, that would be works based. But if our faith is worthless, yet God takes that worthless faith and declares it righteousness, then saves us by grace, it is not of works.
Salvation is a gift of God, received through faith. Ephesians 2:8.
 
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Van

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I agree, all of the translations that read "to be saved" instead of "for salvation" are altering the text to conform to man-made doctrine.
 
V

Van

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davidtaylorjr said:
Nonsense?
Please explain how these mean different things:
1. You were chosen to be saved.
2. You were chosen for salvation.
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Please address what I said, "altering the text" rather than deflection. Verbs are not nouns.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Van said:
Why not ask how a change from a noun to a verb alters the text. Answer: verbs are not nouns. :)
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You are dodging again. How does it CHANGE the meaning? Why are you so scared of answering this?

Obviously nouns and verbs are different but guess what Greek and English are different. There are linguistic choices made for readability and understanding.

However, these phrases do not alter meaning whatsoever.
 
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Van

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To repeat, and I am typing slowly, I said the change from the noun (salvation) to the verb (saved) altered the text. Why are you dodging this fact? Why are you so scared to admitting this fact. You are wasting electrons addressing off topic issues.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we were chosen for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Therefore we had faith before we were elected for salvation individually. And we had the limited free will needed to put our faith in Christ.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Van said:
To repeat, and I am typing slowly, I said the change from the noun (salvation) to the verb (saved) altered the text. Why are you dodging this fact? Why are you so scared to admitting this fact. You are wasting electrons addressing off topic issues.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we were chosen for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Therefore we had faith before we were elected for salvation individually. And we had the limited free will needed to put our faith in Christ.
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You said earlier they alter the text to conform to man-made doctrine. So answer the question, how does the altered text change the meaning? Why do YOU keep dodging? Is it because you are wrong? Of course it is.
 
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Van

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Hi David, you keep changing the subject. Does changing the noun to a verb alter the text? Yes. What is the man-made doctrine? Unconditional Election is blown out of the water by 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore people like you attempt to "alter the text" to rewrite scripture to avoid the truth of conditional election.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Van said:
Hi David, you keep changing the subject. Does changing the noun to a verb alter the text? Yes. What is the man-made doctrine? Unconditional Election is blown out of the water by 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore people like you attempt to "alter the text" to rewrite scripture to avoid the truth of conditional election.
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How does it change the meaning. Why can't you answer this? It is PRECISELY the point of the subject. How exactly does it change the meaning Van?
 
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Van

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Unconditional Election is blown out of the water by 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore people attempt to "alter the text" to rewrite scripture to avoid the truth of conditional election.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Unconditional Election is blown out of the water by 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore people attempt to "alter the text" to rewrite scripture to avoid the truth of conditional election.
 
V

Van

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1) Why did Jesus speak in parables in Matthew 13, if the lost could not hear and understand the milk of the gospel?

Answer Matthew 13 "10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 ]Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Jesus spoke in parables without providing an explanation to prevent them from seeing, hearing and understanding. Thus they had some spiritual ability that had to be countered by using parables.

2) Why did God harden the hearts of the disbelieving Jews in Romans 11, if they were already unable to respond to the gospel.

Answer Romans 11 "
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”

Scripture says God prevented the unbelieving Jews from seeing, hearing and understanding, which means they had that capacity before God hardened them.

Again, IMHO, it is obvious that Jesus spoke in parables and God hardened hearts to prevent the lost from using their limited free will to respond to the gospel.
 
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Van

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Romans 9:16 clearly teaches fallen people can choose to will and to work to be saved.

Matthew 23:13 clearly teaches fallen people were seeking God, they were in the process of entering the kingdom.

James 2:5 teaches God chose those that love God.

Fallen people can not understand the spiritual solid food of the Spirit. But they can respond and grow on the milk of the gospel. 1 Corinthians 3:1
 
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