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Limited Free Will

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Apr 27, 2019.

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  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    So there is no sin in the world? This is straight heresy.
     
    #41 Reformed1689, May 3, 2019
  2. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    yes it is and you are the one who said it.
    MB
     
    #42 MB, May 3, 2019
  3. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Said what?
     
    #43 Reformed1689, May 3, 2019
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks. Your link provides a claim not found in the other Lexicons.

    More absurdity, more nonsense. If He instilled the faith, it would of course be righteous already, and would not need to be credited as righteousness.

    I have already addressed "granted to believe" means allowed and not prevented. Their hearts had not been hardened.
     
    #44 Van, May 3, 2019
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The information you claimed was from Strong's was NOT from Strong's, but was from HELPS word-studies.
     
    #45 Van, May 3, 2019
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Try Vines:
    The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:11,12 ; (2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12 ; (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Corinthians 5:7 . Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself, Romans 4:17,20,21 .​

    Van, the distinct element of God's faith is distinct from the faith generated from human source.

    Such faith is established in the person who through preaching hears the Word. Just as Romans states.

    Such faith is a personal possessive noun reflected in use by the words "my, mine, our, your, ..." because it is endowed by the work of God and placed in ownership of one chosen for redemption.

    Such faith is "distinct from (human) "faith" in man" because the human generated hope is as depleted of any Godly value as the rest of that enmity against God.

    Now it is sad that you stumble over this elementary foundational truth.

    Basic to this is coming to terms with the fact that nothing of the fallen human enters the heavenly. The mind, the will, the faith, are all part of the new creation. There is nothing righteous in the "old nature" and certainly nothing of value when it comes to salvation.



    So you do not agree with the Scriptures that state everyone has turned to their own way and none are righteous? If those Scriptures are correct, then there is no unhardened heart without the direct intervention and purpose of God in redeeming individuals.

    On a side issue, because "corporate election" seems to also be problematic for you, there is no corporate salvation in the Scriptures. We all individually stand before God. We don't have some corporate insurance coverage.
     
    #46 agedman, May 3, 2019
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Which is linked to Strongs.

    In fact, I do not know of a original language dictionary or word study that does not link to Strongs in some fashion.

    Are you discrediting HELPS?

    If so, on what grounds?
     
    #47 agedman, May 3, 2019
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    More non-germane verbiage, Vines does not support the mistaken claim found in HELPS word-studies.
    1) Our faith in Christ is based on information provided by God through the gospel.
    2) His faith, your faith means it is the faith of the individual, and not a supernaturally gifted faith.
    3) Yes, our pre-salvation faith in Christ is worthless, it is God alone who turns a sows ear into a silk purse, by crediting it as righteousness.
    4) Yes it is sad that you cannot grasp this foundational truth.
    5) To claim I do not believe everyone one of us have fallen short, is to post falsehood.
    6) You have no concept of scripture, where we were chosen corporately before creation, and individually during our lifetime. You are incapable of addressing this truth.
     
    #48 Van, May 3, 2019
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    You said the information was from Strong"s but the info was from HELPS.
     
    #49 Van, May 3, 2019
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Yep, as I posted above.

    Because I have no more time to spend with you on this thread, I will leave your view for others to contend.
     
    #50 agedman, May 3, 2019
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Good, perhaps it will cut down on "false flag" misrepresentations.

    1) Our faith in Christ is based on information provided by God through the gospel.
    2) His faith, your faith means it is the faith of the individual, and not a supernaturally gifted faith.
    3) Yes, our pre-salvation faith in Christ is worthless, it is God alone who turns a sows ear into a silk purse, by crediting it as righteousness.
    4) We were chosen corporately before creation, and individually during our lifetime.
     
    #51 Van, May 3, 2019
  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed

    Paul disagrees with you (Eph. 2:8-10)

    What in the world is pre-salvation faith in Christ?

    Proof?
     
    #52 Reformed1689, May 3, 2019
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I agree with Paul, over and against you.
    Pre-salvation faith in Christ is pre-salvation faith in Christ.
    I have proved the truth of our corporate and then individual election many times. But those who hold differing views say the proof is not proof.
    How did God choose those poor to the world if the world did not exist. Your view is God chose foreseen individuals without foreseen faith before the world was created, but they were foreseen to become poor to the world when they were saved. Twaddle
     
    #53 Van, May 3, 2019
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    This post makes no sense at all.
     
    #54 Reformed1689, May 3, 2019
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Obviously this rebuttal shows the lack of a rebuttal. You do know that personal incredulity is a fallacious argument.
     
    #55 Van, May 3, 2019
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No, it shows your post made no sense at all. Kinda like your viewpoints on many things.
     
    #56 Reformed1689, May 4, 2019
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Repeating a fallacy shows denial of the obvious.

    1) Why did Jesus need to speak in parables in Matthew 13? To prevent the lost from understanding.
    2) Why did God hardened the hearts of unbelieving Jews in Romans 11, to prevent the lost from understanding.
    3) Why did Paul speak to new Christians as to men of flesh using the milk of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 3? Because the lost have the limited free will to understand spiritual milk, but not solid food.
    4) Why were the men of Matthew 23:13 able to be in the process of entering the kingdom, if they did not have limited spiritual ability. And if this ability is claimed to be from irresistible grace, how is it that they were prevented from going in?

    The case is closed.
     
    #57 Van, May 4, 2019
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You really need to do some Bible study.
     
    #58 Reformed1689, May 4, 2019
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another empty post from David. Did he answer any of the questions in post 57? Nope.
     
    #59 Van, May 4, 2019
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Because your post and questions were pointless. I don't believe you care to actually properly interpret Scripture so I'm not wasting my time anymore with you and your nonsense.
     
    #60 Reformed1689, May 4, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
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