Limited Free Will

[MB]

Thank you for your opinion filled post. All nonsense.

The Scriptures do not support the view that humankind has the ability within some freedom of will that is unfettered by sin. Therefore, salvation can not and the Scriptures clearly state that salvation is not by the will of humankind.

'I never said it was by the will of man
Only Calvinism says Man cannot choose. Yet the Bible does say that we can choose the right path if we find it. Christ explained our choice in;
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Christ advises we enter in at the straight gate. He does not demand that we do. Only one thing left we decide which way we go. Man's choice to follow Christ is all through the gospel. We choose who we serve.
We are invited to come to Him.
Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
God is not willing that men perrish

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If a man is not willing he cannot be saved.
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

In other words a man must be willing. You being willing after the fact would be to late.
MB

 

[MB]

Again you are inconsistent.

You state, “We do not put ourselves in.” That, “Salvation depends upon God alone.”

Those kind of statements that exclude any human involvement, are then in opposition to your statements such as:
“But God requires that we believe and trust and rely on Jesus for our salvation.”

Make no mistake, belief is certainly that separation from the consequences of unbelief.

But such is not in the capacity of fallen humankind’s ability without the direct intervention of God. It is this single area that you err.

The Greek Word “pistis” is from God and involves the human only in assent of what has already been done. One has core change brought by the preaching of the Word, and as reaction to that change expresses belief as if it were their own for the gift has been given and along with the gift ownership. Therefore, “my faith” which God granted endowed to me was not mine but is now mine. I once did not believe, I now believe by the unmerited favor of God. He is the the authority, not man.

You do not agree with this basic defining of the Greek word for faith (belief) but in doing so bring into question the verse stating it is “not by the will of man.”

To contend otherwise is to refute Hebrews 12

...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

There is no such thing in the Bible as a fallen man this is more nonsense from Calvinist. There is no inability in man to respond to the gospel. There is no scripture that supports individual election. Only corporate election exist. The Jews were not elected individually and neither is anyone else. You have no proof of individual election, it is only in your imagination.
MB

 

[agedman]

There is no such thing in the Bible as a fallen man this is more nonsense from Calvinist. There is no inability in man to respond to the gospel. There is no scripture that supports individual election. Only corporate election exist. The Jews were not elected individually and neither is anyone else. You have no proof of individual election, it is only in your imagination.
MB

What then do you consider the estate of man that is not redeemed?

How about heathen, unregenerate, blind, ungodly, and any words the Scriptures use?

I am understanding your desire to exclude that “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” and other such verses that point to the “inability of man” to respond to the gospel out side of the purposed work of the Holy Spirit. As I pointed out, the Scriptures state Christ is the author and completer of faith. Human generated action without God cannot attain salvation.

 

[MB]

What then do you consider the estate of man that is not redeemed?

Lost with no inabilities as far as coming to Christ to be saved.

How about heathen, unregenerate, blind, ungodly, and any words the Scriptures use?

Lost with no inabilities as far as coming to Christ to be saved.

I am understanding your desire to exclude that “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” and other such verses that point to the “inability of man” to respond to the gospel out side of the purposed work of the Holy Spirit. As I pointed out, the Scriptures state Christ is the author and completer of faith. Human generated action without God cannot attain salvation.

Salvation is all of God always has been but that does not mean we are saved even against our will. If a man is unwilling before Salvation he will not be saved. God is still the author of our Salvation.
This verse below proves Gentiles can hear the gospel. If man can hear the gospel and from hearing the gospel have faith in Christ then men would be saved.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

With out God and His word man's Salvation would be impossible. There fore Salvation is all of God. The idea of man saving himself is a Calvinist misunderstanding, Because God does not have to save anyone but He does because it's His will to do so.
MB

 

[agedman]

'I never said it was by the will of man
Only Calvinism says Man cannot choose. Yet the Bible does say that we can choose the right path if we find it. Christ explained our choice in;
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Christ advises we enter in at the straight gate. He does not demand that we do. Only one thing left we decide which way we go. Man's choice to follow Christ is all through the gospel. We choose who we serve.
We are invited to come to Him.
Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
God is not willing that men perrish

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If a man is not willing he cannot be saved.
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

In other words a man must be willing. You being willing after the fact would be to late.
MB

Matthew Matthew 11:

25At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.g 27All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”​

Not the words “no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Seems you want to ignore the context.

2 Peter 3:

8But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.​

Did you not see to whom the passage is addressed?
“...patient to you...”


2 Corinthians

10And in this matter I give my judgment: this benefits you, who a year ago started not only to do this work but also to desire to do it. 11So now finish doing it as well, so that your readiness in desiring it may be matched by your completing it out of what you have. 12For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have. 13For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness 14your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness.15As it is written, “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.”​

You apparently the writers audience and purpose is not concerned when you make attempts to apply Scriptures?

Sorry, but your post is not truly supported by Scriptures in context.

​

 

[MB]

Matthew Matthew 11:

25At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.g 27All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”​

Not the words “no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

It's obvious He revealed the Father and Him Self through the scriptures and preachers. The context is still the same. No where does it say in these passages that Christ only revealed Him Self and the Father to just a few.
Seems you want to ignore the context. Verse 27 clearly states "anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" but it does not say who HE does revail Him Self to.all because of the preaching and the scriptures. You're assuming that because it 's His choice that this supports your view. It does not.

2 Peter 3:

8But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.​

Did you not see to whom the passage is addressed?
“...patient to you...”

Yes I see who "The Beloved" However you over looked that the Beloved is already saved and will never perish anyway.

2 Corinthians

10And in this matter I give my judgment: this benefits you, who a year ago started not only to do this work but also to desire to do it. 11So now finish doing it as well, so that your readiness in desiring it may be matched by your completing it out of what you have. 12For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have. 13For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness 14your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness.15As it is written, “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.”​

You apparently the writers audience and purpose is not concerned when you make attempts to apply Scriptures?

Sorry, but your post is not truly supported by Scriptures in context.

​

LOL by your interpretation of your bible which is a poor translation IMO
MB

 

[agedman]

Lost with no inabilities as far as coming to Christ to be saved.

Lost with no inabilities as far as coming to Christ to be saved.


Salvation is all of God always has been but that does not mean we are saved even against our will. If a man is unwilling before Salvation he will not be saved. God is still the author of our Salvation.
This verse below proves Gentiles can hear the gospel. If man can hear the gospel and from hearing the gospel have faith in Christ then men would be saved.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

With out God and His word man's Salvation would be impossible. There fore Salvation is all of God. The idea of man saving himself is a Calvinist misunderstanding, Because God does not have to save anyone but He does because it's His will to do so.
MB

It is agreed tha salvation does in no part derive from the will of man. It is totally of God from the Holy Spirit impressing upon the person the judgment, sin and righteousness.

For example:

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"​

What you seem to embrace that in some manner sin does not make one both blind and slave.

Both of these (blind, slave) are used in Scripture as the condition of the unsaved. There are other even stronger terms for the condemned, as you know.

All terms, when taken as factually allowed, present not just a bleak condition but a condition of total inability enmity against God.

 

[Van]

Again you are inconsistent.

You state, “We do not put ourselves in.” That, “Salvation depends upon God alone.”

Those kind of statements that exclude any human involvement, are then in opposition to your statements such as:
“But God requires that we believe and trust and rely on Jesus for our salvation.”

Make no mistake, belief is certainly that separation from the consequences of unbelief.

But such is not in the capacity of fallen humankind’s ability without the direct intervention of God. It is this single area that you err.

The Greek Word “pistis” is from God and involves the human only in assent of what has already been done. One has core change brought by the preaching of the Word, and as reaction to that change expresses belief as if it were their own for the gift has been given and along with the gift ownership. Therefore, “my faith” which God granted endowed to me was not mine but is now mine. I once did not believe, I now believe by the unmerited favor of God. He is the the authority, not man.

You do not agree with this basic defining of the Greek word for faith (belief) but in doing so bring into question the verse stating it is “not by the will of man.”

To contend otherwise is to refute Hebrews 12

...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

Sir, it is a waste of time to discuss scripture with you. I present a view, and you say I am inconsistent. Twaddle. My view is consistent with all scripture.

Does putting our faith in Christ save us? Nope, salvation depends on God alone.
Does putting our faith in Christ provide our access to God's saving grace? Yes Romans 5:2.
Is belief what separates us from the consequence of unbelief? No. Ask the second and third soils of Matthew 13.

Then you say fallen unregenerate people are incapable of faith. How is it that God credits our faith, if it is impossible. You have no answer, just another subject change.

Next you redefine "pistis" to mean what lexicons do not include.

1) relating to God: the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ.
2) relating to Christ: a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God​

Next, you repeat the falsehood that to be granted to believe, means to have faith instilled. No, it means a person is allowed to believe, the gospel has been presented, the person's heart has not been hardened.

Finally, you say that Jesus is the author of our faith, which means it is in Him and in His name that our faith resides, and not meaning He instilled it. You view is unstudied.

Please to continue to obfuscate and deflect, I have presented answers to everyone of your objections time and time again, but you never acknowledge the truth.

 

[1689Dave]

We always choose for a reason. But God controls our free choices through reasons he provides for us to base our choices on. If we choose good apart from God, we get the glory. If we choose good based on the reasons he used to determine our choices, he gets the glory.


London Baptist Confession; Westminster Confession:Chapter 3:1 God's Eternal Decree;

“God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

 

[agedman]

Then you say fallen unregenerate people are incapable of faith. How is it that God credits our faith, if it is impossible. You have no answer, just another subject change.

The question is not "How is it that God credits our faith..." This is another problem in the scheme you construct.

To acknowledge that all saving faith is a gift of God which is bestowed by "hearing and hearing by the Word" is to agree with the Scriptures. It is not human generated fallen hope, but faith implanted by the Holy Spirit through the Work of the Word of God. It is that faith which is given and therefore called "mine" by the believer because such faith was given to individuals to believe.

Next you redefine "pistis" to mean what lexicons do not include.

1) relating to God: the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ.
2) relating to Christ: a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God​

​

From Strongs:

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it.​

From NAS Greek Lex:

... in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it​

What is the work of the Holy Spirit? Convict ...
Without the direct work of the Word and Holy Spirit there is no faith that comes, and no saving faith that can be expressed.

It remains that human faith is fallen, just as the human will. Coming short of the righteousness of God, the Holy Spirit must bring faith that meets that reconciliation.

Next, you repeat the falsehood that to be granted to believe, means to have faith instilled. No, it means a person is allowed to believe, the gospel has been presented, the person's heart has not been hardened.

See above. See previous Scriptures offered to support that faith is bestowed as a gift and not that human failure of vain hope.

Finally, you say that Jesus is the author of our faith, which means it is in Him and in His name that our faith resides, and not meaning He instilled it. You view is unstudied.

If you are stating that human generated faith is the author of saving faith, that is not Scriptural.

John 1 states that God empowers certain to become His children.
Romans 10 states that faith comes by hearing and hearing (the opening of understanding) comes by the Scriptures.
1 Corinthians 12 speaks of how some are given great faith (a greater measure of faith).
Ephesians 2 states the HOW that you desire to "obfuscate and deflect":

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

If you do not see the How and Why in that passage it is not my problem.

Please to continue to obfuscate and deflect, I have presented answers to everyone of your objections time and time again, but you never acknowledge the truth.

Unless you can show me by Scriptures that the infertile soils were redeemed, even had the opportunity to be redeemed, I will acknowledge the Truth over your truth.

Who owns the dirt?
Who decides the use of the dirt?
Who decides when and where to harvest?

The Master or the dirt?

 

[agedman]

LOL by your interpretation of your bible which is a poor translation IMO
MB

Do you even know what translation I quoted from?

You choose the translation this time and quote the passage I posted and demonstrate wrongness of the translation.

 

[Van]

The question is not "How is it that God credits our faith..."

NO ANSWER, JUST DEFLECTION

​

From Strongs:

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it.​

​

Here is the Strongs that I found online:

πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

No mention that pistis is always a pre-salvation gift.

If you are stating that human generated faith is the author of saving faith, that is not Scriptural.

More trying to put your words in my mouth to create a strawman argument. Pure twaddle.

Please stop wasting electrons regurgitating refuted arguments. I ask again, WHY DOES GOD CREDIT OUR FAITH AS RIGHTEOUSNESS IF HE INSTILLS OUR FAITH?

 

[MB]

Do you even know what translation I quoted from?

You choose the translation this time and quote the passage I posted and demonstrate wrongness of the translation.

It Would not make any difference. It's your interpretation of the Bible that is completely wrong and not genuine. You believe you interpret it correctly but it isn't you who interpreted it to say what you think it does. You are happy in your deception and cannot recognize the truth. I've had the displeasure of dealing with you in the past. So there is no point to further conversation.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

So the complete absence of free will is irrational and unrestricted free will is unbiblical.

Just curious, who on here actually argues an absence of free will?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Dead is dead.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I ask again, WHY DOES GOD CREDIT OUR FAITH AS RIGHTEOUSNESS IF HE INSTILLS OUR FAITH?

Because we are dead in trespasses and sins and have no righteousness of our own to offer Him.

 

[Van]

On and on the falsehood acolytes pile on with absurdity, subject change, and nonsense.

To be dead in our sins does not mean to suffer from total spiritual inability. That assertion is fiction with no scriptural support.

If God did instill our faith, it would be righteous. Therefore for God to credit our faith as righteousness, precludes the fiction of instilled or gifted faith.

 

[agedman]

​

Here is the Strongs that I found online: No mention that pistis is always a pre-salvation gift.

Try here for the more complete Strong’s work on Pistis

.

Please stop wasting electrons regurgitating refuted arguments. I ask again, WHY DOES GOD CREDIT OUR FAITH AS RIGHTEOUSNESS IF HE INSTILLS OUR FAITH?

Simple, because His faith is righteous.

Do you not concern your thinking with the Scripture teaching that we are a NEW creation IN Christ? Not a smudge of the original sinful Adam enters heaven. Nothing of flesh, blood, including old will, sin prone nature, natural man, or any aspect from this existence.

The believer is not remodeled bu a new creature. All old things pass away.

Of course God credits “our” faith as righteousness. He would not give us less for then what claim of security abide in less than righteousness.

Do you not know the passage, “He that began a ...”.

And later this:

29For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, 30engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.​

Yet, YOU would post that human faith from some innate conjuring is sufficiently satisfying?

Was the Scriptures wrong in stating “...it was GRANTED TO YOU ... not only to believe but also to suffer” for your view certainly disputes not me, but the very Word of God.

​

Btw, believe in that passage is pisteuein a word from pistis. To entrust, as one who is given an endowment in this the context obliges granted or endowed trust / belief.

 

[agedman]

Taking Colossians at fact:

9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.c​

Is it not Van’s view that human faith and not God’s endowment initiates the salvation?

Does not the Scriptures state, “...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God...”

If humankind already have faith, then why would the Scriptures state that belief (faith) was an empowerment, a gift, an endowment from God?


It is God’s work and none of our own according to multiple statements in Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

There is no inability in man to respond to the gospel. There is no scripture that supports individual election.

John 6:44