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Limited Free Will

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Yeshua1

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Van said:
The idea we are free to choose from among available options is consistent with our experience. Scripture tells us God sometimes restricts our options, i.e. hardening the hearts of some such that they will reject the gospel, i.e. Romans 11.

"The absence of free will is, however, devastating to all theists since without it you cannot choose to be evil or good, and therefore deserve neither punishment nor salvation."
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So the complete absence of free will is irrational and unrestricted free will is unbiblical. Some assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.

We can harden our own hearts by the practice of sin. And God can harden hearts for His purpose, such as Romans 9. God can choose a person well on the way of hardening his own heart, and complete the process. Scripture does not rule any of the three out.

Some say whatsoever comes to pass is predestined to occur. Therefore God is the author of sin. Then some others say while it is true that God to be sovereign must predestine everything, that does not make God the author of sin. Rational minds object.

Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate. The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.

Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see Romans 11), including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.

Our ability to make choices from among various options can be restricted by God for His purpose, thus the Biblical doctrine is "Limited Free Will."

Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.

So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God.
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Lost sinners can only keep on choosing the wrong thin in regards to Jesus and his offer of the Gospel!
 
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Van

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Yeshua1 said:
Lost sinners can only keep on choosing the wrong thin in regards to Jesus and his offer of the Gospel!
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Repeating falsehood does not make it true. Lost sinners had the limited free will to be in the process of entering the kingdom, thus seeking. Thus you assertion is unbiblical.
 
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Van

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1) Why did Jesus need to speak in parables in Matthew 13? To prevent the lost from understanding.
2) Why did God hardened the hearts of unbelieving Jews in Romans 11, to prevent the lost from understanding.
3) Why did Paul speak to new Christians as to men of flesh using the milk of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 3? Because the lost have the limited free will to understand spiritual milk, but not solid food.
4) Why were the men of Matthew 23:13 able to be in the process of entering the kingdom, if they did not have limited spiritual ability. And if this ability is claimed to be from irresistible grace, how is it that they were prevented from going in?

The case is closed.
 
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Yeshua1

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Van said:
Repeating falsehood does not make it true. Lost sinners had the limited free will to be in the process of entering the kingdom, thus seeking. Thus you assertion is unbiblical.
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No lost sinner enters into kingdom unless granted that by the Holy Spirit!
 
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Van

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Yeshua1 said:
No lost sinner enters into kingdom unless granted that by the Holy Spirit!
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Yes, I agree, our election for salvation is conditional on God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

But to rewrite God's inspired word to deny it means say his faith and your faith is beyond rational.
 
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Yeshua1

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Van said:
Yes, I agree, our election for salvation is conditional on God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

But to rewrite God's inspired word to deny it means say his faith and your faith is beyond rational.
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The is NO conditional election, as God chose me before I even heard of Jesus to be saved!
 
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Van

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Yeshua1 said:
The is NO conditional election, as God chose me before I even heard of Jesus to be saved!
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God chose you corporately before you even heard of Jesus, but not individually. See 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
 
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Van

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davidtaylorjr said:
Again with a nonsense interpretation of 2 Thess. 2:13. It says God chose you to be saved. Then it explains how that salvation plays out.
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The Greek form of salvation is a noun, therefore the "through" clause explains chose. Your claim turns the noun into a verb. Not how it reads.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

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Van said:
The Greek form of salvation is a noun, therefore the "through" clause explains chose. Your claim turns the noun into a verb. Not how it reads.
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Clearly you do not understand BASIC grammar. Chose is the verb. Salvation is the OBJECT of that verb. That doesn't make salvation a verb. Chose you to what? Chose you to salvation. Chose you for salvation. How does that possibly make that a verb?

The rest of the verse describes the way that salvation is manifest.
 
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Van

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davidtaylorjr said:
Clearly you do not understand BASIC grammar. Chose is the verb. Salvation is the OBJECT of that verb. That doesn't make salvation a verb. Chose you to what? Chose you to salvation. Chose you for salvation. How does that possibly make that a verb?

The rest of the verse describes the way that salvation is manifest.
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Here is what you posted, turning the noun into a verb, "Again with a nonsense interpretation of 2 Thess. 2:13. It says God chose you to be saved."

The clause modifies the verb, describing how we were chosen and on what basis we were chosen. How were we chosen, the Spirit set us apart in Christ. On what basis were we chosen, God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

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Van said:
Here is what you posted, turning the noun into a verb, "Again with a nonsense interpretation of 2 Thess. 2:13. It says God chose you to be saved."

The clause modifies the verb, describing how we were chosen and on what basis we were chosen. How were we chosen, the Spirit set us apart in Christ. On what basis were we chosen, God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
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Guess I was right, you don't understand simple grammar.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

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Van said:
Yet another "against the man argument" a logical fallacy, and a wasted post.
Saved is a verb, salvation is a noun, and fallacy is fallacy.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA your whole argument is because I used the word saved and not salvation? Wow, you really need to go back to school.
 
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Van

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Hi Davidtaylorjr,
Concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the "through..." clause
modifies the verb, describing how we were chosen and on what basis we were chosen. How were we chosen, the Spirit sets us apart in Christ. On what basis were we chosen, God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
 
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Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Van said:
Hi Davidtaylorjr,
Concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the "through..." clause
modifies the verb, describing how we were chosen and on what basis we were chosen. How were we chosen, the Spirit sets us apart in Christ. On what basis were we chosen, God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
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I've already shown this is nonsense. If you want to ignore basic grammar and the rest of Scripture that is your problem. We were chosen to be saved. We were chosen from the beginning. We are not somehow chosen once our faith is activated. God gives us the faith BECAUSE we are chosen.
 
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Van

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davidtaylorjr said:
I've already shown this is nonsense. If you want to ignore basic grammar and the rest of Scripture that is your problem. We were chosen to be saved. We were chosen from the beginning. We are not somehow chosen once our faith is activated. God gives us the faith BECAUSE we are chosen.
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1) Your claim 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not mean what it says is without merit.
2) Your claim basic grammar supports your view is utterly false.
3) We are chosen for salvation by the Spirit setting us apart in Christ based on God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
4) We were chosen, from the beginning of the New Covenant through faith in the truth.
5) We are chosen through, or on the basis of our God accredited faith in Christ.
6) The "Gift of Faith" doctrine is bogus, without support in scripture.
7) We are chosen for salvation because God credits our faith as righteousness.
 
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