Limted Attonement

[BobRyan]

Bob
Actually the text says "He is the atoning sacrifice for Our Sins and NOT for Our Sins ONLY but for those of the Whole World" 1John 2:2.

Once the 5 point calvinist has redefined the term "Whole World" to mean "FEW" of Matt7 - then they are the ones who must conclude that "the Whole World is saved".

It is not the Arminian position that gets into that knott of difficulty - but 5 point Calvinism - or any who adopt "Limited Atonement".

Pastor Larry
If you understand propitiation, you will understand why your view of 1 John 2:2 leads to universalism.

"He is the Atoning Sacrifice for Our Sins and NOT for ours sins only but for those of the Whole World" 1John 2:2.

If you understand "whole World" in that text - you will see why limited atonment can not work.

If you redefine "whole World" as "FEW of Matt 7" - then you are forced to say "THE Whole World Is going to be Saved".

If you do not redefine "WHole World" as the "Few" of Matt 7 - then you need not make that statement.

Pastor Larry

If Christ propitiated their sins, then there is no longer any way that a just God can send them to hell. Propitiation is actual, not potential.

The "actual" atoning sacrifice concept that we see in 1John 2:2 is explained in graphic detail by God Himself in Lev 16. The Day of Atonement.

In that model - God shows that the work of the High Priest (Christ) continues beyond the point of making the "Atoning sacrifice". The "Atonement" process itself ends NOT with vs 15 when the sin offering is slain - the atoning sacrifice is made, rather it ends with 33-34. The entire "process" that God identified - covered much more than the initial act of the "Atoning sacrifice" being made. Once the atoning sacrifice was complete - the Lord still had lessons to teach about the Gospel process regarding sin.

The Atoning Sacrifice is "sufficient" and equals the "debt owed", but the service does not end there.

Pastor Larry
Propitiation is the satisfaction of God's wrath on sin. Again, the idea is that whatever Christ did for "us" he also did for the "whole world" akin to John 12:32 which obviously means the whole world without distinction rather than the whole world without exception.

Indeed. You are starting to sound like an Arminian.

And as we see in 1John 4 - God sent him to the "Savior of the World".

IT all fits. The sacrifice address the debt of ALL - all that is owed, the MANY that owe the debt through the One fall of Adam - find in Christ - their Savior - the debt paid in full.

But the offer is still as Christ placed it "To whosoever will" - He stands Outside. He stands at the door of the heart and "knocks". IF any man HEAR His voice - (man on the inside of the door - Christ on the outside) and OPENS the door - Christ will "Come in".

IF we confess our sins - the response is that - HE IS faithful and just to Forgive us.

Calvinism seeks forgiveness received Without Confession and Repentance - from the SAME book where John states - the opposite. The Atoning sacrifice for the Whole World is in the context of that 1John 1:9 sequence for the "individual".

Calvinism walks out of the service of Lev 16 - at the point of vs 15 instead of sticking around for the full explanation that God offers. ITs as if they say "I've seen enough - lets go home" in vs 15.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Still - in all the billions that perished before that golden age - the summary is STILL as Christ says it to be "The MANY" perished in hell and the "FEW" found the way to eternal life MAtt 7.

Bob,

I think you need to re-think your numbers. Just think how many people would live on this earth over the next 1000 years. At the time Jesus walked this earth, it is estimated there were 100 million people on the earth. Now there are 6 billion people on the earth.

Just brush up on your math a bit and I think you'll understand my point from my postmillennialist perspective.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
In the same way, from the beginning of time, God has foreordained who will be saved, yet the cause of that foreordaining is what he foreknew about them, which is their choice for Him.

I think he did foreordain who would be saved and I don't think it is because of what he knew they would do because Scripture never puts it that way. Scripture says he foreknew people, not things or actions. However, this scarcely places you in a better spot because if God foreknew them even on this basis of prescience, they have lost their free will to change their mind. Hence you have destroyed the very thing you sought to preserve -- the "free will" of man.

However, it does not end there: If God knew that they would choose him, then what purpose does election or foreordination serve anyway? The outcome was already assured (unless God's knowledge is faulty). It is like someone who makes perfect predictions on football games when the games are already over -- it just doesn't count.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Rather than resorting to that approach why not explain in what way "irresistable grace" is not in fact teaching that the "lost" are "caused" to be saved such that without any "free will of their own" - nor making any choice - they "discover" that a force outside of themselves as caused them to suddenly be found with New Covenant condition of the "Law written on the heart"?

Becuase God changes the will. He does not force them to do somethign they don't want to do.

The purpose is a free exchange of information and views - not simply threatening those who differ.

But the free exchange of information assumes that people's views will be dealt with fairly, not caricatured. When one continues to caricature or misrepresent views after having been corrected, the free exchange of ideas becomes jeopardized because of corruption. I am not threatening you. I am giving you a heads up about the policies of participation in the board so that you can make your choices accordingly.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
If you understand "whole World" in that text - you will see why limited atonment can not work.

I have not redefined the whole world. We are discussing how it should be defined. You have assumed your definition to be John's. I don't agree that you are right. I think it is you who have redefined "whole world" to be all without exception when it should rather be all without distinction.

But the offer is still as Christ placed it "To whosoever will"

I don't argue with this ... but again, it is not the issue. The issue is, Did Christ propitiate the sins of whole world without exception? If you answer "yes," then you must answer how does God send someone to hell for sins that have been propitiated?

Propitiation is actual not potential. YOu believe it potentially paid for sin. I believe it actually paid for sin. Therefore, those who sins have been propitiated no longer face the prospect of eternal death. You believe they do.

Calvinism seeks forgiveness received Without Confession and Repentance - from the SAME book where John states - the opposite. The Atoning sacrifice for the Whole World is in the context of that 1John 1:9 sequence for the "individual".

In no way. Calvinism demands confession and repentance.

[ October 09, 2002, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
I think you need to re-think your numbers. Just think how many people would live on this earth over the next 1000 years. At the time Jesus walked this earth, it is estimated there were 100 million people on the earth. Now there are 6 billion people on the earth.

Just brush up on your math a bit and I think you'll understand my point from my postmillennialist perspective.

Ken
A Spurgeonite[/QB]

So is your theology determined by the Scripture or is your interpretation of Scripture determined by your theology? Everytime someone says something about the few and many, you reply by shouting "I'm a postmillennialist! So there will be more," instead of a good sound exegetical reason for denying the plain teaching of Christ.

 

[KenH]

Scott,

I can hardly go into the total Biblical basis for postmillennialism in this forum. My stating my position as a postmillennialist implies the Biblical exegesis that goes with it. There are plenty of postmillennial books and commentaries you can read to obtain the details.

Also, remember we have already discussed about those that die in the womb, in early infancy, and in young childhood being saved and how this alone, even without postmillennial eschatology, means a much, much larger amount of people being saved than the mere 2-3% of mankind that non-Calvinists appear to me to be so eager to limit heaven to.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 09, 2002, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
[QB]Scott,

I can hardly go into the total Biblical basis for postmillennialism in this forum. My stating my position as a postmillennialist implies the Biblical exegesis that goes with it. There are plenty of postmillennial books and commentaries you can read to obtain the details.

Believe it or not, but I'm a postmillennialist as well. However, even that cannot deny the plain teaching of few/many.

Also, remember we have already discussed about those that die in the womb, in early infancy, and in young childhood being saved and how this alone, even without postmillennial eschatology, means a much, much larger amount of people being saved than the mere 2-3% of mankind that non-Calvinists appear to me to be so eager to limit heaven to.

And as great as that sounds, there is still the Biblical evidence to the contrary. Does not the words of Christ overrule our personal thoughts and theories about the way the world works?

(And I never said 2-3%. I'm more inclined to 35-40% if I HAD to make a guess.)

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
(And I never said 2-3%. I'm more inclined to 35-40% if I HAD to make a guess.)

I see. So you can debate the percentage with Brother Ray then since you are closer to my 50% +1 than his 2-3%.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Believe it or not, but I'm a postmillennialist as well.

I guess we can't go into it in this forum

, but I would be curious how one can be basically Arminian and a postmillennialist.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
(And I never said 2-3%. I'm more inclined to 35-40% if I HAD to make a guess.)

I see. So you can debate the percentage with Brother Ray then since you are closer to my 50% +1 than his 2-3%.

Ken
A Spurgeonite</font>[/QUOTE]Yet both of us believe the Scripture that says many/few.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Yet both of us believe the Scripture that says many/few.

Yes, but Ray sees tens of billions more people in hell than you do.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Yes, but Ray sees tens of billions more people in hell than you do.

So? The fact is that both of our models fit in with SCripture. Yours, quite simply, does not.

[ October 10, 2002, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
The fact is that both of our models fit in with Scripture. Yours, quite simply, does not.

I disagree. And considering you have called yourself a postmillennialist, I am surprised you disagree with me. I believe you are being inconsistent in your interpretation of Scripture.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
...considering you have called yourself a postmillennialist, I am surprised you disagree with me. I believe you are being inconsistent in your interpretation of Scripture.

Can one be a postmillenianist without believing that more people will be in heaven than in hell? I would say so. From what I understand of Scripture, they must be able to act in harmony. That is, unless, you can disprove the "many/few" words of Christ. As much as I would like to believe that the majority of people will make it to Heaven, it is a concept that is not supported by Scripture.

[ October 10, 2002, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[Frogman]

Consider the # of lives aborted each year.

Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Consider the # of lives aborted each year.

I've tried the abortions, dying in infancy, dying in early childhood argument without success. We even discussed whether these are saved or not - and the non-Calvinists will not agree that these are saved. They desire to leave open the possibility that God will damn aborted babies, infants and young children that die to hell.

And they like to call Calvinists hard-hearted.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[BobRyan]

quote:

Bob
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Still - in all the billions that perished before that golden age - the summary is STILL as Christ says it to be "The MANY" perished in hell and the "FEW" found the way to eternal life MAtt 7.

Ken

I think you need to re-think your numbers. Just think how many people would live on this earth over the next 1000 years. At the time Jesus walked this earth, it is estimated there were 100 million people on the earth. Now there are 6 billion people on the earth.

#1. I did not write Matt 7 - it is "Christ" Himself that would need to "brush up" on His numbers. HE says that by contrast - the FEW are those saved and the MANY are those lost.

#2. The postmillenial view that you hold does not require there to be more than 6 billion people - or even 600 thousand people left at the start or even at the end of the millenium. It has no way to predict that more than 6 billion will survive to the start of the millenium - much less that 6 billion will be alive at the end. In fact no number at all is attached to it. And if it does not start for another 200 years - there may be few people left indeed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Consider the # of lives aborted each year.

Bro. Dallas

A million a year (maybe) are aborted compared to the hundreds of millions who die without Christ each year.

Again, I understand completely your need to rationalize the numbers. I'm just saying what Christ said. That goes beyond what we try to figure out. It's what he said that counts.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
A million a year (maybe) are aborted

There are more than a million abortions in the U.S. alone each year and that only accounts for 6% of the world's population. You have conveniently passed over all of those that die naturally in the womb and the tens of millions that die in infancy and young childhood, especially in third world countries.

Re-add, Scott.

Ken
A Spurgeonite