Lo I stand at the door and knock

[C.S. Murphy]

A calvinist friend I know told me that when Jesus said this at the end of Revelation that He was not speaking to lost people, can anyone elaborate on this thought.
Murph

 

[Gunther]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
A calvinist friend I know told me that when Jesus said this at the end of Revelation that He was not speaking to lost people, can anyone elaborate on this thought.
Murph

Most likely it is because he opens by calling them a church. For Christ to say that, it implies that they are already redeemed.

 

[BobRyan]

Wishfull thinking on the part of the Calvinist.

The text of Rev 3 says "I Would that you were EITHER Cold or hot -- but because you are luke warm I will spit you out of my mouth".

HE calls them spiritually "Miserable, poor, blind and naked, with Christ on the OUTSIDE calling and knocking to come in" as "opposed" to Clothed in Christ's righteousness.

The idea that the born-again saved condition is "without the robe of Christ - naked and spiritually blind, with Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking to come in" is NEVER presented in all of scripture.

The idea - that churches ONLY had saved people in them - is NEVER argued in all of scripture.

However - even worse for your Calvinist frined "Behold I STAND at the door and KNOCK if anyone HEAR my voice AND OPEN the door I WILL come in". The Christ-OUTSIDE your hearts door condition is the "saved condition" according to some really desperate Calvinists. But hopefully - most will not make that mistake.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Kiffin]

A calvinist friend I know told me that when Jesus said this at the end of Revelation that He was not speaking to lost people, can anyone elaborate on this thought.
Murph

True! It is Jesus calling for the Church of Laodecia to repent. It is probably taken out of context more than any other scripture. The verse has nothing to do with salvation but of a lukewarm church that had forgotten her Lord.

 

[Major B]

Bob,

If you find a reference to the human heart and its "door" In Rev 3, I'll eat my Scofield. The only verse in scripture that refers to opening the human heart in the context of salvation is Acts 16:14, which speaks of Lydia, "whose heart the Lord opened..."

Jesus is knocking on the door of an unfaithful church, calling to the faithful remnant within. There is no human heart here except in the famous painter's imagination.

This IS the most misquoted and misapplied verse in the Bible

 

[Dr. Bob]

Glad others see that as well. Don't know how many times I've heard Rev 3:20 be an invitation to the unsaved which is 100% false.

Even for a strong dispensationalist that would equate the messages of Rev 2-3 with various eras of the church age, at the end Jesus is outside the church and seeking readmission to this worldly and backslidden (if I can borrow an OT term also misused widely) group.

Sounds like my church.

 

[GH]

All have not yet called upon His name, but when all is said and done, all men shall call upon His name. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will pledge alliegance to Him.

"Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD, for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them- all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that ALL OF THEM MAY CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD and serve him shoulder to shoulder".
--Zeph. 3:8-9

What a good and great God we have!

All glory, praise and honor to you, Almighty Father. \o/

 

[KenH]

What a great pair of verses, Diane!

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[BobRyan]

Major B --If you find a reference to the human heart and its "door" In Rev 3, I'll eat my Scofield. The only verse in scripture that refers to opening the human heart in the context of salvation is Acts 16:14, which speaks of Lydia, "whose heart the Lord opened..."

Jesus is knocking on the door of an unfaithful church, calling to the faithful remnant within. There is no human heart here except in the famous painter's imagination.

This IS the most misquoted and misapplied verse in the Bible

The hopeful efforts on behalf of Calvinism seem to continue here. So lets do a little exegesis for a change - the text IS surely speaking to "ANY of MANKIND" and speaking in INDIVIDUAL terms, though we can all readily see that Calvinism's teaching here needs to turn from that fact.

Rev 3
16 "So because YOU are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit YOU out of My mouth.
17 "Because you say, "" I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,'' and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Here Christ gives the rejected status of those who at one time were IN Christ but who then deceived themselves and lost that in-Christ status - spewed out - due to their own faulty choices. The group is described as being composed of church members that are “claiming to be rich” in spiritual things – but are in fact spiritually “wretched, miserable, poor, blind and spiritually naked” rather than spiritually clothed in Christ. With Christ on the OUTSIDE “knocking”. And this is never – ever – said to be the description of the “saved condition” in scripture. No escaping it.

The text does NOT say to Laodicea “SOME of YOU are spiritually blind”. The instruction is defining the group AS BEING spiritually blind. (As much as Calvinism needs this not to be the case).

Calvinists sometimes imagine that this message identifies a “good group of Christians” INSIDE Laodicea that are “really” the ones being asked to “take action”. They insist on bifurcating the “YOU” specified so that it magically switches between saved and lost people Inside the church as “Calvinism” needs the case to be. The urgent need of Calvinism is to split the “you” that is spit out from the “you” that must “take action” and is being given instruction: But the SAME “you” that is condemned in Rev 3:17 is the “you” that must BUY in vs 18 and OPEN in vs 20. The fact is plain -- there is no justification for that arbitrary insertion into the text of different definitions for “you” – except to defend Calvinism’s doctrinal “need”.

Staying “in context” Christ now provides the "solution" for “the YOU” that is about to be spewed out.

18 I advise YOU to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that YOU may clothe YOURself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.


This same “you” must buy the spiritual gold, spiritual white garments and spiritual eye salve – to clothe “yourself”. There is no way to split up “YOU” from “YOURSELF” that is to be Clothed.

They are being told to “take action”. Without taking that action they remain self-deceived. The SAME group that is condemned – is the same group that is asked to “take action.

Then Christ moves ON to the more general case - that also applies to those who are OUTside of Christ due to having been spewed out.


19 " Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.


(Notice Christ says he loves them. And it is NOT true that the Laodiceans are the ONLY ONES Christ loves. Rather "God so loved the WORLD". )

Christ is calling for “repentance” – and stating His love for the lost – about to be spewed out of His mouth.

Heb 12 tells us that - For ALL whom God loves He reproves and disciplines. We see this in John 15 with the trimming of the branches as well as in Heb 12 with the children of God being disciplined.

The principle has moved to one that is general - and not some special dispensation/treatment that only applies to the Laodiceans. Those whom God loves He disciplines (disciples) Heb 12, John 15, Rev 3:19

And in keeping with that general case we have Christ continuing to speak – to the SAME group and showing that this is a personal – direct message..

20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door, I WILL come IN to HIM and will dine with HIM, and HE with Me

The case is made that the same “anyone” that is instructed to “open the door” is the SAME “anyone” that WILL receive the benefit of immediate fellowship with Christ. The idea that the “anyone” that is being asked to OPEN the door – is NOT those who are addressed in this message as condemned – is simply a “need” of Calvinism’s doctrine – not in the text.

Each individual must HEAR and OPEN and then to each ONE that does – the RESULT will be that immediate fellowship that is promised. This is not a case of those ALREADY in fellowship with Christ and “inside the church” being promised that they WILL be in fellowship if they only open the door. Rather it is a promise to the condemned of Vs 17 that THIS action will result in the INDIVIDUAL being IN fellowship

Salvation is “individual” the remedy is “individual” the people IN the church of Laodicea are in fact “individuals” with the spiritual condition described, and in need of taking the “action” described – individually – to obtain the “individual solution” described IN the text in “individual” terms.

Note – the “individual terms” continue –

.
21 " He who overcomes, I will grant to HIM to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 " He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

It is NOT just the Laodiceans that will enjoy God's company and sit with Christ - but ALL who open the door.

At times – the Calvinist approach is to imagine “the door of the CHURCH” is closed to Christ and all on the inside of the church are “without Christ” – all on the inside are “spiritually blind, wretched, poor, miserable and spiritually naked” without the robe of Christ. Then in that view – one of the members is asked to “let Christ into the church” since He is outside the door of the church knocking. But in that case the “result” would be that only to that One – is fellowship restored – the REST would remain – spewed out – miserable and lost since the language of the solution shows that “I with HIM and HE with ME” is the nature of this 1-to-1 solution.

Calvinism’s attempted rework of the text is not possible.

In Christ,

Bob

[ July 27, 2003, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[GH]

Originally posted by KenH:
What a great pair of verses, Diane!

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

Hi Ken

Thanks for your post

I agree with what some of the brethren are saying here: God is talking to believers in that verse about standing at the door and knocking. He calls us into a deeper union with Him. He calls us out of the harlotry of an organized religious system to give us HIMSELF. There is so much more to seek in Him. That we may know Him, the one true and Living God! Amen.

Rev. 22

16 "I, Jesus, send My messenger to testify these things to you in the ecclesias. I am the root and the race of David, the resplendent morning star.
17 And the spirit and the bride are saying, 'Come!' and let him who is hearing say, 'Come !' And let him who is thirsting come. Let him who will, take the water of life gratuitously.
18 "I am testifying to everyone who is hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If ever anyone may be appending to them, God shall be appending to him the calamities written in this scroll.
19 And if ever anyone should be eliminating from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall be eliminating his part from the log of life, and out of the holy city, that is written in this scroll.
20 "He Who is testifying these things is saying, 'Yea, I am coming swiftly.'" "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!"
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints! Amen!

Did you ever notice, Ken, that in the book of Rev. after all is said and done - that the Spirit and the Bride are still saying Come? Interesting, very interesting.

May His love enfold us more and more as we seek to know Him. \o/

Diane

 

[dianetavegia]

Glad others see that as well. Don't know how many times I've heard Rev 3:20 be an invitation to the unsaved which is 100% false.

Sounds like Calvinistic denial to me! Sorry Dr. Bob, I disagree! This is most definately a call to those within the 'church' who are lukewarm, wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

Rev. 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.


Diane

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Glad others see that as well. Don't know how many times I've heard Rev 3:20 be an invitation to the unsaved which is 100% false.

Sounds like Calvinistic denial to me! Sorry Dr. Bob, I disagree! This is most definately a call to those within the 'church' who are lukewarm, wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

Rev. 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.


Diane </font>[/QUOTE]We agree; it is a call to the church as Christ knocks on the door of the church. That is not how it is preached ad infinitum, but that the knocking is on the heart's door. Where is the human heart mentioned in Rev 3? It is not. The only verse in the Bible which speaks of opening the heart is Acts 16:14, and the Lord opens the heart there.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by GH:
Did you ever notice, Ken, that in the book of Rev. after all is said and done - that the Spirit and the Bride are still saying Come? Interesting, very interesting.

Diane,

The church through 2000 years, and especially since the time of Augustine, has so twisted and warped what is supposed to be "Good News" that it is not surprising that there are a gazillion different interpretations of all stripes in existence today.

Today, most churches preach "Bad News" except for what they consider the 1% or so of the population they consider to be saved. In any other setting, we would understand that a scheme that fails 99% of the time is a disaster. Yet most churches consider this to be "Good News". But, of course, those promoting this consider themselves to be part of the 1%.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[GH]

Amen, Ken

Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,

We strain at gnats and swallow camels while the beauty of the Lord goes unnoticed.

He who has eyes, let him see

He who has ears, let him hear what the Spirit of the Lord is saying.

Oh Lord, give us a revelation of who you are! Amen.


Diane

 

[ColoradoFB]

Low I stand at the door, so thou cannot see me through thy peephole!

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi y'all
After reading these post I have a couple of questions.
With respect to both sides of this issue I would like to know if Christ spews these out of His mouth. What does this mean? Does it mean that they are no longer part of the Body of Christ.If so then how could they be saved in the first place. Since we are suppose to be, once saved always saved.
Maybe There not saved completely? I did notice that the church talked about in this same chapter just before Laodeica called the Church of Philadelphia. There is no question they were saved because of what Christ said in verse 8.
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

These have an open door and no one can shut it. It seems obvious to me that if Laodieca has a closed door and Christ has to knock at it then obviously they aren't saved. Because they have no strength they haven't kept his word and maybe they even denied His name. The implication of them being luke warm to me seems like they only have part of there Salvation right and have refused the most important part which is Jesus.
"They Have need of nothing" Could it be they feel they have no need of Christ?
May God bless you;
Mike

 

[BobRyan]

The Wicked - lost are not "in Christ"- they are not in danger of losing their "exaulted" in-Christ status.

Only to the church of the saints could it be said that they are "in danger" of being spewed out RATHER than remaining "in Christ".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Yelsew]

Sorry to be late into this, but I've been away for a week. Nevertheless,

All have not yet called upon His name, but when all is said and done, all men shall call upon His name. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will pledge alliegance to Him.

GH, Just where is it that scripture says the part about all man shall call upon his name, and that every tongue will pledge allegiance to Him? I find "Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord", but nothing to do with "all men calling on His Name", or "pledging allegiance to Him". Most assuredly many shall be judged and then cast into the lake of Fire, the second death, because they did not call on his name nor did they pledge allegience to Him.

Those who bend the knee will be in two categories, those who worship Him, and those who are defeated by Him. Those who confess him as Lord will also be in two categories, those who believe and are saved by His lordship, and those who failed to believe and are defeated by his Lordship.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Just where is it that scripture says the part about all man shall call upon his name

Zeph. 3:9 (ESV)
"For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples
to a pure speech,
that all of them may call upon the name of the Lord
and serve him with one accord.

 

[Yelsew]

What day or time does Zephania refer to in saying, "in that day"?