Logic & Reason in the Face of Incomplete Knowledge

[JD731]

There is a mantra here among some (most) who post here that God makes no difference in how he deals with men from one age to the next but every thing is a constant with him, they contend, from the beginning of creation to the eternal state. This op will take issue with that mindset and will prove it is false.

The problem is they do not accept the biblical teaching of "ages." But, that is an argument for a different thread.

I will launch my argument by quoting some false assumptions by a poster who calls himself canadyjd from the recently closed thread concerning the Millennium.

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"JD731 disagrees with you. He believes people are not saved by grace after the rapture. The only way to earn your salvation is to refuse the mark of the beast and get beheaded.

See the 2nd paragraph of very long post #124 for confirmation."
_______________________________

He reads my comments as saying the only saved people are people who get their heads cut off.

I began my comments with this line.
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"As always, without exception, sinners are justified by faith in what God says to them."
_________________________

Does this mean that the only way one can be saved is to have their heads cut off in the mil? You see how dishonest some people can be. Following is the quote of paragraph #2.
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That will not be true after the rapture of the church because the church will be complete and gone and grace will not be the motivating principle of God in salvation any longer and not just anyone can be saved during the tribulation. Those who take the mark of the beast have sealed their fate and God will not redeem them. Those under the altar with their heads cut off, and awaiting others who soon will be with them, in the Revelation, are those who refused the government of Satan and his man and those who are redeemed during those days will be those who believe the gospel of the kingdom is coming soon in the person of Jesus Christ and who commit themselves to that faith to the point they loved not their lives unto the death.
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I made no statement that says only the beheaded are saved.

Now for proof that God deals differently with men in different ages and at different times.

When Jesus came in the flesh it was to Israel only. He preached what he called the gospel of the kingdom for nearly the entire time of his ministry and he sent his apostles and prophets out to Israel only to preach the same gospel. The kingdom of heaven is at hand, they preached. Nothing about the grace of God at all. These men did not even understand or did they believe that Jesus must die and rise again in order to make a door into the kingdom by which they could enter in.

They went to the cities to which Jesus sent them and they were to preach and if they did not receive their gospel, they were to shake the dust off their feet and move on to the next city until they got over all the cities of Israel. They did not go back to the town. They had one shot to believe.

When the grace of God was preached in the beginning of this age, Jesus sent them to all the world to preach the gospel of the grace of God and the apostles would urge those hearers to believe and be saved. They compelled them to enter in because the door is open.

"knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men, Paul said. Paul stayed in Ephesus for 3 years and he entered into the synagogue to preach to the Jews every sabbath day, he said. This is different.

When the church is complete then believers of that time will preach again the kingdom of God is at hand. This is the same gospel that was preached during the times of the earthly ministry of Jesus. Men must believe this gospel because now it is to the whole world and they must hold out faithful and it will not be easy to resist the power of the Satanic government that will be over them on earth. It is not a time of grace.

I can prove what I say with scriptures in context.

Two men will come back from the past with the message and 144,000 men will be saved, called the firstfuits.

The precedent for firstfruits is here when these first believers in Achaia

1 Corinthians 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Comments welcome.

 

[37818]

Logic or reason based on incomplete knowledge is not the problem in and of itself.

But presuppositions which are not true for any reason or lack of reason are a huge problem.

Logic or reason can only be valid if premises are true and the logic used are not fallacies.

One must start with known truth.

 

[37818]

. . . after the rapture . . . .

It is not agree that it is prior to the tribulation. Pre mid post preterist or not.

 

[canadyjd]

…. canadyjd
_______________________________
"JD731 disagrees with you. He believes people are not saved by grace after the rapture. The only way to earn your salvation is to refuse the mark of the beast and get beheaded.

See the 2nd paragraph of very long post #124 for confirmation."
_______________________________

He reads my comments as saying the only saved people are people who get their heads cut off.

I began my comments with this line.
__________________________
"As always, without exception, sinners are justified by faith in what God says to them.
________________________
That will not be true after the rapture of the church because the church will be complete and gone and grace will not be the motivating principle of God in salvation any longer and not just anyone can be saved during the tribulation. Those who take the mark of the beast have sealed their fate and God will not redeem them. Those under the altar with their heads cut off, and awaiting others who soon will be with them, in the Revelation, are those who refused the government of Satan and his man and those who are redeemed during those days will be those who believe the gospel of the kingdom is coming soon in the person of Jesus Christ and who commit themselves to that faith to the point they loved not their lives unto the death.

I made no statement that says only the beheaded are saved.

Comments welcome.

You said after the rapture the principle of salvation by grace is no longer in place. If it’s not salvation by grace, on what basis are people saved?

You said people believe what God has said. Yes, that’s true. But then you added “those who are redeemed during those days are those who believe the gospel of the kingdom is coming soon…AND commit themselves to that faith to the point they lived not their lives to the death.”

So grace in salvation is not in effect. Only those who die for the belief Jesus will return will be saved.

Those are your words.

They are in conflict with scripture in context. Ephesians clearly states the two groups, Jew and Gentile, are brought together as one new man by the cross of Christ. It further states, very clearly, that truth will demonstrate the grace of Christ “in the ages to come”.

“In the ages to come”, the principle of the grace of Christ will be manifest. You deny the truth of scripture when you claim salvation by grace will end.

I stand by my statements. You hold to a false theology. You plainly state any scripture in context that disagrees with your doctrine is false. You say we don’t know how to read, bla bla bla.

Go ahead and make your case for “logic” that denies scripture in context.

I’ll leave you to it

peace to you

 

[JD731]

Logic or reason based on incomplete knowledge is not the problem in and of itself.

But presuppositions which are not true for any reason or lack of reason are a huge problem.

Logic or reason can only be valid if premises are true and the logic used are not fallacies.

One must start with known truth.

Here is known truth. It is God who justifies. Always on the basis of faith in what he says. It is the blood of Christ that cleanses the justified sinner of sins. It is the Holy Spirit of God who indwells the justified sinner who is cleansed of his sins by the blood of Christ. A sinner can be justified by God the Father and not have his sins cleared by the blood of Jesus Christ, but, no sinner can be cleared of his sin unless he is justified by the Father. Neither can the Holy Ghost indwell a sinner as a permanent person of his nature until his sins are washed away.

I am going to give you 5 passages without commentary to prove this

Ex 34:6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his (God the Father's) grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his (Christs') blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his (God the Father's) righteousness: that he (God the Father) might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Washing is first

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Men are cleared of their sins after the blood of Christ is applied to wash it away. Jesus Christ died in the beginning of the 5th millennium of time. Sinners before that were justified by God and their faith was counted for righteousness until Christ came.

Now, he is our righteousness.

The arguments that some here are presenting are not according to biblical truth. I am trying to give you what I have learned.

 

[canadyjd]

Here is the known truth.

Scriptural truth found in Ephesians destroys dispensationalism.

The two groups, Jew and Gentile, are bound together as “one new man” by the cross of Christ. They both now have access to the Father, through the Spirit. This is a permanent change as revealed by the scriptures that say this truth will demonstrate the grace of Christ in the “ages to come.”

So there, in one short passage, two parts of your false doctrine are exposed.

1. There is no separate future for Israel and the Church.

2. Salvation by grace does not end in any “age to come”.

I realize you will not accept the truth of scripture in context. As you have stated, you believe scripture in context will never conflict with your doctrines and if anyone thinks it does they don’t know how to read and they should examine themselves to see if they are really born again.

Ignoring the truth of scripture in context doesn’t change the truth, it only keeps you blind to the truth.

peace to you

 

[JD731]

You said after the rapture the principle of salvation by grace is no longer in place. If it’s not salvation by grace, on what basis are people saved?

Saving someone is an act. Grace is a principle. I wish you would quote me correctly. The principle of grace is connected to gentiles and the ministry of the apostle Paul, who was specially called and equipped by God to be the unique apostle to the gentiles. The initial principle by which Jews were saved while they had their national identity, (until 70AD) was on the principle of PROMISE. It was to them that all the covenants were given and through whom salvation must come. The gentiles had no particular promises from God of salvation and in the OT they were without God and without Christ. To be included in God's great salvation and in his church without any of these things is indeed a matter of the wonderful grace of God and demonstrates like nothing else his kindness and his mercy to those without hope of salvation, which is the condition, Paul says, in Eph 2 11-13 of all gentiles until God opened the door of faith to us in Acts 10. in the year 40 AD..

You said people believe what God has said. Yes, that’s true. But then you added “those who are redeemed during those days are those who believe the gospel of the kingdom is coming soon…AND commit themselves to that faith to the point they lived not their lives to the death.”

You misquoted me again, and am thinking it is on purpose. (I am putting you on ignore after this post because you are telling lies - I do not have time to correct you on every quote)

Believe me, in those days men will have to choose sides and there are only two sides. Speaking of this time period, Jesus said the following.

Matthew 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

So grace in salvation is not in effect. Only those who die for the belief Jesus will return will be saved.

No, grace is not the operative principle during those days. Judgement is the operative principle. This does not mean that God ceases to be gracious but he is dealing with sinners who will be destroyed from off the earth. God has never dealt with men like this in yours or my lifetimes.

Those are your words.

They are in conflict with scripture in context. Ephesians clearly states the two groups, Jew and Gentile, are brought together as one new man by the cross of Christ. It further states, very clearly, that truth will demonstrate the grace of Christ “in the ages to come”.

6 And hath raised us up TOGETHER, and made us sit TOGETHER in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye (gentiles who have no hope) saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The antecedent of the pronoun "us" is Jews and gentiles. The antecedent of the pronoun "YE" is gentiles throughout this epistle. Paul knows how to use the pronoun US. So, it is by grace that gentiles are saved and we know now that historically it was at different times. We have read and believed the book of Acts. This is the epistle that explains why..

“In the ages to come”, the principle of the grace of Christ will be manifest. You deny the truth of scripture when you claim salvation by grace will end..

I stand by my statements. You hold to a false theology. You plainly state any scripture in context that disagrees with your doctrine is false. You say we don’t know how to read, bla bla bla.

Go ahead and make your case for “logic” that denies scripture in context.

I’ll leave you to it

peace to you[/QUOTE]
You will have to deal with your propensity to misrepresent.

 

[canadyjd]

Here is another known truth:

In thread started by JD731, defending dispensationalism and encouraging questions, I asked about Matthew 5:17 in which Jesus stated He came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

“Read it carefully”, he said. Jesus said He came to fulfill not that He did fulfill.

JD731 went on to say the only way for Jesus to fulfill the law and the prophets was for the Jews to accept Him as their Messish and make Him king.

I responded with:

1: Jesus did not fail to accomplish anything He came to do

2: JD731 is stunningly ignorant of the many OT prophecies which declare the rejection, persecution and death of the Messiah.

JD731 response was to ignore scripture in context. Declare all scripture in context supports his theology and if anyone thinks differently they don’t know how to read and should examine themselves to see if they are truly born again.

Ignore all you like. Just know I will continue to challenge your false doctrine with the truth of scripture in context.

If you decide to have a civil discussion without questioning my ability to read or my salvation, I am always ready.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Saving someone is an act. Grace is a principle…..Paul says, in Eph 2 11-13….

6 And hath raised us up TOGETHER, and made us sit TOGETHER in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye (gentiles who have no hope) saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The antecedent of the pronoun "us" is Jews and gentiles. The antecedent of the pronoun "YE" is gentiles throughout this epistle. Paul knows how to use the pronoun US. So, it is by grace that gentiles are saved and we know now that historically it was at different times. We have read and believed the book of Acts. This is the epistle that explains why..

Grace is an act of mercy, of unmerited favor. This applies to both Jews (like Paul) and Gentiles. Paul preached in synagogues wherever he went, and though most rejected, he did have converts among Jews.

All those words, and yet you failed to address the big issue of v. 7: “That in the ages to come…shew His grace… toward us” This truth is permanent. “In the ages to come”. Grace does not end in this “age”. It continues forever.

“Us” clearly in context, is both Jew and Gentile that have been permanently brought together as one new man by the cross of Jesus. That is the Church, which is now the collection of the saved, both Jew and Gentile and will remain so until Christ comes for His bride.

Anything else is contrary to scripture.

peace o you

 

[37818]

A lot of rhetoric. Multiple issues. (?) Quite frankly confusing. Personally I like clarity and to keep things simple. An issue given in the rhetoric may be clear. But I did not follow it. It was with other things. I am a single issue at a time guy. Long argumentes, no thanks. I might pick one point, should I bother?

 

[canadyjd]

A lot of rhetoric. Multiple issues. (?) Quite frankly confusing. Personally I like clarity and to keep things simple. An issue given in the rhetoric may be clear. But I did not follow it. It was with other things. I am a single issue at a time guy. Long argumentes, no thanks. I might pick one point, should I bother?

I prefer to look at one passage of scripture at a time and flesh out the meaning in context. I find that much more productive than multiple quotes and long dissertations.

peace to you

 

[37818]

I prefer to look at one passage of scripture at a time and flesh out the meaning in context. I find that much more productive than multiple quotes and long dissertations.

peace to you

There are two related issues. The distinction between God's plan for Israel and the gentiles (Luke 21:24, Luke 2:32). And that God makes them one body in Christ (Ephesians 2:12).

 

[canadyjd]

There are two related issues. The distinction between God's plan for Israel and the gentiles (Luke 21:24, Luke 2:32). And that God makes them one body in Christ (Ephesians 2:12).

Ok, let’s look at Luke 21:24

It seems clear that particular prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Romans destroyed the Temple and dispersed the Jews throughout the world.

I guess we need to flesh out the meaning of “until the time of Gentiles is fulfilled”.

Does that mean Jerusalem will no longer be trodden under foot? Does it mean a restoration of Jews? It doesn’t really say that. A restoration of Israel? It doesn’t really say that.

Or does it simply mean Jerusalem never is restored and when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, Christ returns and the new heaven new earth begins?

peace to you

 

[37818]

It seems clear that particular prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD

No. That is not clear.

 

[37818]

Ok, let’s look at Luke 21:24

It seems clear that particular prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Romans destroyed the Temple and dispersed the Jews throughout the world.

I guess we need to flesh out the meaning of “until the time of Gentiles is fulfilled”.

Does that mean Jerusalem will no longer be trodden under foot? Does it mean a restoration of Jews? It doesn’t really say that. A restoration of Israel? It doesn’t really say that.

Or does it simply mean Jerusalem never is restored and when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, Christ returns and the new heaven new earth begins?

peace to you

Well, speculation does not cut it.

 

[canadyjd]

No. That is not clear.

Well, speculation does not cut it.

Luke 21:24 “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all the nations and Jerusalem shall be trodden under foot of the Gentiles…..”

From 66-70 AD the Roman army under Titus lay siege to Jerusalem. The Romans won, Ultimately, many of the Jews were killed, the rest were scattered across the Roman Empire as slaves, the Temple was destroyed. Jerusalem lay in ruins for decades and was resettled by other, gentile, peoples.

How does that not fulfill Luke 21:24?

Peace to you

 

[37818]

How does that not fulfill Luke 21:24?

The cross reference to Luke 21:24 is Romans 11:25. Regarding its true fulfillment.

 

[canadyjd]

The cross reference to Luke 21:24 is Romans 11:25. Regarding its true fulfillment.

Ok, before we move on to Romans, can we agree the conditions around the siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple fulfill the first part of Luke 21:24?

peace to you

 

[37818]

Ok, before we move on to Romans, can we agree the conditions around the siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple fulfill the first part of Luke 21:24?

peace to you

Now I see what you mean. Only the first half may very well refer to 70AD, "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, . . ." I was looking at the second half of the prophecy. But also Luke 19:42-44, Matthew 24:1-2. Luke 21:6 regarding 70AD.

 

[canadyjd]

Now I see what you mean. Only the first half may very well refer to 70AD, "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, . . ." I was looking at the second half of the prophecy. But also Luke 19:42-44, Matthew 24:1-2. Luke 21:6 regarding 70AD.

Ok, great. Now we have to figure out what “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” means.

Luke was a long time friend of Paul, he was called the beloved physician, so your reference to Romans 11:25 will help shed light on Luke 21.

Again, we see the phrase “until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled”. In this case, Paul is referring to the partial blindness of Israel (Jews) concerning Jesus as Messiah. This blindness (a veil) causes the Jews (mostly, not entirely) to reject Jesus as Messiah. The result is the gospel of Jesus Christ goes to the Gentiles and they, too, are saved by grace, being grafted into the view that represents the children of God.

The blindness continues until, “the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”, at which point the veil (blindness of Jesus as Messiah) is lifted from the Jews.

The result is, all Israel is saved, the Israel of God.

So, my understanding is, the blindness continues until every gentile that is going to be save is saved. Once the blindness to Jesus as Messiah is lifted, a mass conversion of Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah will occur.

All Israel refers to all who are children of God, both Jew and Gentile, that are saved by the gospel of our Lord Jesus, grace through faith.

How’s that line up with your views?

peace to you