Looking for info: Partial Preterism

[Gorship]

I love how you're throwing kosmos under the bus trying to demote it. It truly demonstrates the mindset of the Preterist. You originally used its absence as an argument for a limited small local tribulation, inadvertently admitting its true meaning. Then, when you found out Jesus used the word, you change on a dime and tried to demote its meaning. Hilarious.

You're making my job easy.

To be fair. That's not what was said.

There was acknowledgement and then a return question on how luke uses a differing word.



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[Calminian]

To be fair. That's not what was said.

There was acknowledgement and then a return question on how luke uses a differing word.

It's between you and God, Gorship. The Text is clear, as the preterists on this board have inadvertently demonstrated.

 

[David Kent]

Your arguments are dwindling down to tantrums. No need to respond.

Not a tantrum. You misquoted to make a point.

 

[Calminian]

Not a tantrum. You misquoted to make a point.

Well it definitely wasn't an argument. The Text is clear, a kosmos judgment, greater than the Flood, followed by the immediate return of Christ. That's the only literal approach to the Text. You can argue the text shouldn't be taken literally, but you can't argue your position is literal.

 

[David Kent]

Well it definitely wasn't an argument. The Text is clear, a kosmos judgment, greater than the Flood, followed by the immediate return of Christ. That's the only literal approach to the Text. You can argue the text shouldn't be taken literally, but you can't argue your position is literal.

Such as. In type not in intensity. Jesus was telling the disciples that the temple they were discussing, not some future temple as some dispies tell me, would be destroyed and the sign that it would happen was when they saw the abobination of desolation standing where it should not, Luke tells us that it was the armies surrounding Jerusalem. They saw that. it was fulfilled.

 

[Calminian]

Such as. In type not in intensity. Jesus was telling the disciples that the temple they were discussing, not some future temple as some dispies tell me, would be destroyed and the sign that it would happen was when they saw the abobination of desolation standing where it should not, Luke tells us that it was the armies surrounding Jerusalem. They saw that. it was fulfilled.

The kosmos tribulation Jesus spoke of has not been fulfilled.

Matt. 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

 

[prophecy70]

The kosmos tribulation Jesus spoke of has not been fulfilled.

Matt. 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

 

[robycop3]

Partial preterism is as wrong as full preterism, for the simple reason that the prophesied events simply haven't yet happened. There's simply no getting around history and reality!

These words of JESUS prove partial preterism wrong:
Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So we see Jesus said His return will be very shortly after the great trib ends. So, if the great trib was in 70 AD, Jesus is long-overdue!

Actually, the eschatological events have NOT yet happened. When they do, they'll fulfill Biblical prophecies about them exactly, to the letter.

 

[robycop3]

The IFB forum was KJV only - I posted using only KJV, but in practice as a church we used modern versions as our congregation included Asians with poor English, & needing translation. The KJV with its archaic language was difficult for them to understand.

We kept to simple English & used the NIV.

For discussion, I don't rely on any translation, but use the blueletterbible.org which provides many translations & Strongs numbering system.

OSAS is OK provided you insist on faithful Christian living, rather than the usual idea of "make your decision, then you're saved by Jesus, so it doesn't matter how you live because you can't be lost once saved even if you return to a sinful life."

Most who hold to Reformed (Calvinistic) doctrine started life & were saved as Arminians. As we grow in faith & knowledge of our LORD Jesus, our understanding of Scripture & doctrine develop.

Is the IFB forum to which you refer in the "Online Baptist" site?

 

[robycop3]

@Gorship, I thought I should give you a fair warning. You may have already discovered that there are some on this BB that are very strongly opposed to all forms of preterist views. Robycopy3 is like a bulldog, and he will just keep coming back with telling you why the futurist view is right and preterism is just nonsense. He will belittle your views by using all caps and using phrases like "MMRRRPPHHH!!! WRONG!", then go on to ask how you can believe such nonsense. John of Japan will try to use intellectual arguments to refute our views. If you get into discussions with these guys, don't let them frustrate you. Know when to walk away. That's my nickel's worth of free and unsolicited advice.

Lodic, when I pointed out facts from Scripture & history that **PROVE** Nero could NOT have been the "beast", you said you believe the Scriptures 100% and fully agree with the facts from history about Nero's life - but that you still believe Nero was the "beast"! Thus, I asked, "How RATIONAL is that?????????"

Gorship, the preterist views, both full & partial, are completely man-made, not supported by history and reality whatsoever, and were made by MEN who reduced "inconvenient" Scriptures to "symbolic/figurative" status in order to make Scripture accommodate their agenda. They do NOT take Scripture at face value, as God intends it to be believed.

As for Preston, Gentry, DelMar, etc. they're a gang of quack booksellers interested more in $$ than in telling the TRUTH.

 

[robycop3]

Isn't it the truth, though? It's almost like a political discussion, where there is no room for an actual discussion. Based on your earlier posts, I am guessing that IFB is "Independent Freewill Baptist". I will confess that I know next to nothing about the IFB doctrines. Could you let me know a little about their / your views?
I am more of a Baptist by marriage than by conviction. My wife was raised Roman Catholic until she was about 14, when she converted to Southern Baptist. We love our little church, even though I disagree with them on OSAS and eschatology. I became Christian at the age of 18, and the only church in town was Baptist. During my Christian walk, I've also been Assembly of God, and have been learning more of Reformed Theology over the past couple of years. My apologies for being long-winded. This is a nice break after a recent very long argument with Roby. (I didn't take my own advice, and let it go on too long.)

Not trying to be smart-aleck, nor condescending, but your argument never made sense. You were given PROOF that nero was NOT the "beast", with which you agreed, but you still hold on to that belief, and you couldn't produce one qiark of EVIDENCE proving any of the eschatological events have already occurred.

The fact remains that preterism, both full & partial, is phony as a Ford Corvette. Unfortunately, you seem to have swallowed the hooey in the writings of some quacks.

 

[robycop3]

Can we agree that Jesus is talking to the disciples?
And that He tells them that they will see those things listed happen?

The literal sense to me would be that they saw the great tribulation.

Or do you not think this speaks of the same things we read in revelation?

Hope that doesn't read snarky. Just asking.

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If they saw the great trib, then Jesus' words in Matt. 24:30 are not true. Can't be both ways!

 

[robycop3]

"15“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

Jesus is still talking to the disciples here about what they will see. This reads to me as them seeing the abomination of desolation, which does not fit in with the pre trib pre mill timeline. I cant find a "gap" that suggests the "you" here is some future people.

The history of the old temple in Jerusalem is well-known, having been documented by several Jews, and the "abomination of desolation" simply DID NOT OCCUR in it. The Jews would NOT have been silent about it if it had!

What will the AOD be? Daniel said it'll be when the man of sin sets up his image in the temple; Paul adds that, while in the temple, he will exalt himself above anything that's ever been worshipped, proclaiming himself to be God, and Rev. 13 says that the false prophet will cause the image to speak, as well as re-iterating the beast's claim to be God. Such actions would hardly go unnoticed, & would be well-known if they'd already occurred!

Please do a REALITY CHECK to prove to yourself that preterism is wrong ! ! !

 

[kyredneck]

"15“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation

When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: Mt 24

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. Lu 21

 

[kyredneck]

If they saw the great trib, then Jesus' words in Matt. 24:30 are not true. Can't be both ways!

HRRRUMMMPPPP!!!!! WRONG!!!! THAT'S PHONY AS A FOUR DOLLAR BILL!!!!

The plain statement from scripture; "the great tribulation" is a long done deal:

1 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

 

[Baptist Believer]

...then Jesus' words in Matt. 24:30 are not true. Can't be both ways!

Matthew 24:30
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

I have noticed that many people miss the meaning of "coming on the clouds." In popular Western theology, it is often thought to be a description of the physical return of Jesus to reign upon the earth. However, it is simply a picture of divine judgment -- in this case, judgment on the generation that rejected Jesus and put Him to death.

Notice the use of the "clouds" symbolism:

2 Samuel 22:7-12 (David describes God's deliverance from his enemies and Saul)
“In my distress I called upon the Lord,
Yes, I cried to my God;
And from His temple He heard my voice,
And my cry for help came into His ears.
“Then the earth shook and quaked,
The foundations of heaven were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
“Smoke went up out of His nostrils,
Fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
“He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
“And He rode on a cherub and flew;
And He appeared on the wings of the wind.
“And He made darkness canopies around Him,
A mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky.

Psalms 97:2-5 (God destroys His adversaries)
Clouds and thick darkness surround Him;
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
Fire goes before Him
And burns up His adversaries round about.
His lightnings lit up the world;
The earth saw and trembled.
The mountains melted like wax at the presence of the Lord,
At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Jeremiah 4:11-13 (Judgment upon Judea)
In that time it will be said to this people and to Jerusalem, “A scorching wind from the bare heights in the wilderness in the direction of the daughter of My people—not to winnow and not to cleanse, a wind too strong for this—will come at My command; now I will also pronounce judgments against them.

“Behold, he goes up like clouds,
And his chariots like the whirlwind;
His horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us, for we are ruined!”

Ezekiel 30:1-4 (Judgment upon Egypt)
The word of the Lord came again to me saying, “Son of man, prophesy and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God,

“Wail, ‘Alas for the day!’
“For the day is near,
Even the day of the Lord is near;
It will be a day of clouds,
A time of doom for the nations.
“A sword will come upon Egypt,
And anguish will be in Ethiopia;
When the slain fall in Egypt,
They take away her wealth,
And her foundations are torn down.

Nahum 1:1-6 (Judgment upon Assyria)
The oracle of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.

A jealous and avenging God is the Lord;
The Lord is avenging and wrathful.
The Lord takes vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies.
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power,
And the Lord will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.
In whirlwind and storm is His way,
And clouds are the dust beneath His feet.
He rebukes the sea and makes it dry;
He dries up all the rivers.
Bashan and Carmel wither;
The blossoms of Lebanon wither.
Mountains quake because of Him
And the hills dissolve;
Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence,
The world and all the inhabitants in it.
Who can stand before His indignation?
Who can endure the burning of His anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire
And the rocks are broken up by Him.

Zephaniah 1:14-15 (Judgment upon Judah for their idolatry)
Near is the great day of the Lord,
Near and coming very quickly;
Listen, the day of the Lord!
In it the warrior cries out bitterly.
A day of wrath is that day,
A day of trouble and distress,
A day of destruction and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness…

 

[Lodic]

I love how you're throwing kosmos under the bus trying to demote it. It truly demonstrates the mindset of the Preterist. You originally used its absence as an argument for a limited small local tribulation, inadvertently admitting its true meaning. Then, when you found out Jesus used the word, you change on a dime and tried to demote its meaning. Hilarious.

You're making my job easy.

Aren't you doing the same thing with oikumene? You are so anxious to take advantage of the misquote that you miss the real point. We are here for a discussion, so, let's talk about this. We have an apparent contradiction, so we need to search out what is meant here. We can't dismiss this parallel passage in Luke 21:26, where Jesus used oikumene, a term which refers, in context, to the Roman Empire. Let's go back to Matthew 24:1-3. Jesus and the disciples came out of the temple, and Jesus predicted the temple's destruction. In verse 3, the disciples ask Him "when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age." Note - I've quoted from the NASB, but the KJV incorrectly uses the term "end of the world". The Greek word used is "ainos", or "age". What age are they asking about? Is there something about the destruction of the temple that could make them think that the world is coming to an end? Since the temple is associated with the Jewish religion, it is related to the end of the old covenant age.

Drop down to Matthew 24:34. Jesus says that this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. What are all these things? Everything that He had been telling them since the beginning of the Olivet Discourse. A literal reading of "this generation" tells us He is speaking of the people alive in His day. This is not a future generation, or He would have said "that generation". It is not "race", because that is a completely different word. Jesus always uses "this generation" to refer to His contemporaries. (Examples include Matthew 11:16; 12:41-42; Luke 7:31; 11:29-32.)

Among other things, Jesus said that "the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world...and then the end will come" (Matt. 24:14). "Oikumene" is the word for "world" in this verse. Scripture tells us that the gospel was, in fact, preached in the whole world (meaning the Roman Empire, in context). See Romans 1:8; 10:18; Col. 1:6, 23.

Just wanted to give you a few things to think about for an honest discussion.

 

[Lodic]

Lodic, when I pointed out facts from Scripture & history that **PROVE** Nero could NOT have been the "beast", you said you believe the Scriptures 100% and fully agree with the facts from history about Nero's life - but that you still believe Nero was the "beast"! Thus, I asked, "How RATIONAL is that?????????"

Gorship, the preterist views, both full & partial, are completely man-made, not supported by history and reality whatsoever, and were made by MEN who reduced "inconvenient" Scriptures to "symbolic/figurative" status in order to make Scripture accommodate their agenda. They do NOT take Scripture at face value, as God intends it to be believed.

As for Preston, Gentry, DelMar, etc. they're a gang of quack booksellers interested more in $$ than in telling the TRUTH.

Roby, all you have done is "prove" why you (and other futurists) hold your views.

You may have already discovered that there are some on this BB that are very strongly opposed to all forms of preterist views. Robycopy3 is like a bulldog, and he will just keep coming back with telling you why the futurist view is right and preterism is just nonsense. He will belittle your views by using all caps and using phrases like "MMRRRPPHHH!!! WRONG!", then go on to ask how you can believe such nonsense.

What is said to @Gorship is exactly the way I see it. You obviously disagree with this view, but you won't let it go.

The main point of Gorship's topic was to find out information on this viewpoint, and to ask whether it was accepted by Baptists in general. While you disagree with this view, I don't think you really understand it. Those who adhere to this eschatological view are the ones who understand it best.

 

[Lodic]

Not trying to be smart-aleck, nor condescending, but your argument never made sense. You were given PROOF that nero was NOT the "beast", with which you agreed, but you still hold on to that belief, and you couldn't produce one qiark of EVIDENCE proving any of the eschatological events have already occurred.

The fact remains that preterism, both full & partial, is phony as a Ford Corvette. Unfortunately, you seem to have swallowed the hooey in the writings of some quacks.

Scripture and history provide all the proof needed. Seems like we've gone around this mountain before.

 

[Covenanter]

Among other things, Jesus said that "the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world...and then the end will come" (Matt. 24:14). "Oikumene" is the word for "world" in this verse. Scripture tells us that the gospel was, in fact, preached in the whole world (meaning the Roman Empire, in context). See Romans 1:8; 10:18; Col. 1:6, 23.

Just wanted to give you a few things to think about for an honest discussion.

Note that at Pentecost -

Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.​

Does Mat. 24:14 require every nation on the planet to hear the Gospel? Or did the Gospel command given to the Apostles put into effect Jesus' statement? For the first thousand years of the Gospel Jesus couldn't return 'cos America hadn't heard the Gospel!?!?!