Looking for info: Partial Preterism

[blacksheep]

There are two different words used, one word in Matthew and another in Luke. Luke clarifies the meaning for those outside Judaism. It is not a contradiction and I haven't seen any evidence that Lodic claims such a thing. You are simply throwing out accusations instead of dealing with scripture.

There are three different words for WORLD and three different words for END in Mathew 24 and acknowledging their definition debunks Preterism.

 

[Lodic]

Even this response assumes Luke contradicts Matthew. I'm merely pointing out the ridiculous conclusion you've made that Scripture contradicts. If this is where you're forced to go, you're now arguing for inerrancy.

No. My response is from the fact that we have two different Greek words with two different meanings. Since we do agree in the inerrancy of Scripture, our only question is in what Jesus meant in this context. We cannot assume that He meant a worldwide event, as Matthew's gospel indicates, nor can we assume that He meant a local event, as Luke's gospel indicates. Thus, the conversation and search to clarify just what Jesus did mean.

 

[Lodic]

There are three different words for WORLD and three different words for END in Mathew 24 and acknowledging their definition debunks Preterism.

Not necessarily. While words have different meanings in the dictionary, it's their context that truly provides their meaning. That is, it's now how it COULD be used, but how WAS it used?

 

[blacksheep]

Not necessarily. While words have different meanings in the dictionary, it's their context that truly provides their meaning. That is, it's now how it COULD be used, but how WAS it used?

Not necessarily what? There aren't three different words or they don't debunk Preterism? The word AEON/AION alone debunks it!

End in verse 3 is G4930.
End in verse 6 & 13 & 14 is G5056.
End in verse 31 is G206.
World in verse 3 is G165.
World in verse 14 is G3625.
World in Verse 21 is G2889.
I can explain the difference they make later on IF you like. I'll be out for a while.

 

[Lodic]

There are three different words for WORLD and three different words for END in Mathew 24 and acknowledging their definition debunks Preterism.

I think I see your point, Brother. However, it doesn't make sense, because it's still only one speech. If Jesus meant the entire world, Luke would have recorded it as such; if Jesus meant this was limited to Jerusalem, Matthew would have recorded it as such. Since this thread will close in a few hours, we may not get a chance to finish this discussion. In case we don't, I do want to thank you for your thoughtful input. Even though we don't agree on this topic, it's clear that you give careful consideration to what you are saying.

 

[Lodic]

Not necessarily what? There aren't three different words or they don't debunk Preterism? The word AEON/AION alone debunks it!

End in verse 3 is G4930.
End in verse 6 & 13 & 14 is G5056.
End in verse 31 is G206.
World in verse 3 is G165.
World in verse 14 is G3625.
World in Verse 21 is G2889.
I can explain the difference they make later on IF you like. I'll be out for a while.

They don't necessarily debunk preterism. (Sorry, I should have clarified that.) Since you are going to be out, I'm not sure we will have that chance, because this thread will close in a few hours. Otherwise, I'd take you up on your offer. I will copy your text above and research it, though. I'm in the middle of a project, so I should get back to it. Take care, Brother.

 

[Lodic]

Note especially for @Calminian regarding the "date of Revelation" debate.

Calminian said: ↑
The debate I posted will debunk this as well. The 65AD date, when you look at the evidence, is intellectual suicide. It's not even close. I feel very bad for all the people caught up in this false movement. It will rob them of the blessing promised in the first chapter.

My earlier response was...I've seen Tommy Ice's arguments destroyed by Gary DeMar. I'm sure that Hanegraaf will have a great defense for the early dating of Revelation, just as Gentry does. I can't recommend his "Before Jerusalem Fell" highly enough. To be fair and balanced, I will take a look at the videos you have posted. However, I can't promise to watch them all the way through, as they are about an hour each.

As promised, I did watch a fair amount of the debate. Absolutely nothing that I hadn't heard before. I'm as convinced as ever that John wrote Revelation in the mid-60s. I find the arguments for a mid-90s date to be weak. No "Preterist Debunking" done here. We are at an impasse, with each of us as firmly convinced of their view as ever. I haven't convinced you, you haven't convinced me, and we can still be brothers in Christ.

 

[Gorship]

The threads coming to close so I will quickly just say thanks to everyone thats posted. Lots for me to go back and read and re read.

All the best,

 

[Baptist Believer]

The indignation of the LORD has never been upon ALL nations or upon all armies.

Yet, Isaiah says exactly that. Remember that "all" to the Hebrews does not mean the same thing as "all" in modern English. The LORD stands ready to take on all armies of people that oppose Him and His work in humankind, specifically in this context, Israel.

The only armies that could be implied here is the Assyrians or the Edomites. NOT ALL ARMIES. However, verse 2 implies the LORD makes war against these armies and destroys them! He never destroyed ALL armies!

He can easily destroy any army that comes against His purposes. In this case, it is the Edomites.

For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

This passage, like many others in Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, has BOTH appears to have, (and may have) historical allusions, but when things are indicated to have NEVER happened, it has a future fulfillment.

The Babylonians destroyed Edom a few years after this prophecy. So it was fulfilled.

The translation your using doesn't use the word STARS in verse 4. It uses the word HOST.

You are completely incorrect. I'm using the NIV here, and it has been translated as "stars." I know that some other translations use "hosts" (for instance, the KJV), and it simply refers to the heavenly bodies (hosts) like the sun, moon, and stars.

Isaiah 34:4 is also repeated by John in Revelation 6:14...

Yes, that makes my point. This is standard prophetic imagery. If you are familiar with the prophets, you see it.

Here too in 2 Peter...

You act like I don't know that. That's why Peter and John use this imagery. The Hebrews understood it.

Isaiah has a HOST of chapters that I believe futurist typically interpret as fulfilled whereas I believe are NOT.

So essentially, your position is that you believe it is all future and therefore I must accept that?

What of poor Edom? It was destroyed by the Babylonians in direct reference to this prophecy and others. If show me the eternally smoking sulfurous remains of Edom, then I will be forced to accept all of this standard imagery as literal.

 

[prophecy70]

Notice the eschatological events HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET? So much for your guess as to what certain Scriptures mean!

And the "days of vengeance" DID fall on that generation of Jews. But a coupla generations later, the Jews received a much-greater punishment, beginning in 135-136 AD when they were expelled from their land, a punishment that climaxed with the nazi holocaust.

Read the text again, an we already found out what "This generation" means clearly in the Bible.

Truly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE.

 

[blacksheep]

It is impossible for a Preterist to explain how "all these things" occurred in 70 AD.

One that totally debunks Preterism is verse 14,

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Preterist quote Colossians 1:23 as proof that the gospel HAS BEEN preached throughout the whole world. Either Paul was mistaken, or the bible contradicts himself, or the Preterist interpretation "sans hermeneutic" is flawed.

I use the KJV because it's the best version that's tied in with the Greek and Hebrew Lexicon. The KJV does have mistakes and Colossians 1:23 is proof. The word HEAR is mistranslated HEARD, and the word HAVE is NOT in the original text! NO HERMENEUTIC, NO TRUTH!

This is how it's worded in the Textus Receptus which the KJV was transalted from...

IF-SURELY YE-ARE-ON-RAMAINING to-THE BELIEF HAVING-been-foundED AND SETTLED AND NO beING-after-STIRRED FROM THE EXPECRATION OF-THE WELL-MESSAGE OF-WHICH YE-HEAR THE one-BEING-PROCLAIMED IN EVERY THE CREATION UNDER THE heaven OF-WHICH BECAME I PAUL THRU-SERVitor.
You can check for yourself. http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/col1.pdf
LET ME BREAK IT DOWN FOR YOU...Better translated...

If surely you continue to remain grounded and settled in the faith, not being stirred up and moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye hear being preached to every creature under heaven; which I Paul am made a minister.

Another one is verse 21 "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now -- and never to be equaled again."
KJV - "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

I can probably list over a dozen historical events that outdid the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem. I should not have to take the time to prove that but if I have to I will.

Preterist even have an outrageous explanation for Verse 7&8. Every time I read them I chuckle!

"Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains."

Sounds like birth pangs BEGAN and ENDED upon the earth pretty quick in 70AD!

My conclusion is that the Preterist view is fully fabricated and in denial of God's Prophetic Word. Preterism denies and distorts over 1,000 verses of prophecy, the entire book of Revelation, and dozens of chapters. Their answer to every prophecy is, "it already happened."

 

[blacksheep]

Read the text again, an we already found out what "This generation" means clearly in the Bible.

Truly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE.

I've read it and done several word studies on it.

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Antecedent, definition - a preceding event, condition, or cause.

What's the antecedent to THIS GENERATION? Answer - the generation that SEES ALL theses things, i.e. the events Jesus mentioned between verses 3-33. NOT the generation Jesus is Speaking to!

THIS (bold is mine) 3778. houtos hoo'-tos, including nominative masculine plural houtoi hoo'-toy, nominative feminine singular haute how'-tay, and nominative feminine plural hautai how'-tahee from the article 3588 and 846; the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):--he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

 

[blacksheep]

They don't necessarily debunk preterism. (Sorry, I should have clarified that.) Since you are going to be out, I'm not sure we will have that chance, because this thread will close in a few hours. Otherwise, I'd take you up on your offer. I will copy your text above and research it, though. I'm in the middle of a project, so I should get back to it. Take care, Brother.

The word AEON is "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time." According to a Preterist, that AGE lasted less than 40 years. Vines says, "signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period."

Mathew 24 is Jesus' answer to the question, "What shall be the sing(s) of the consummation of the age." The age of grace, the times of the gentiles, was NOT completed in 70 AD!

 

[prophecy70]

I've read it and done several word studies on it.

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Antecedent, definition - a preceding event, condition, or cause.

What's the antecedent to THIS GENERATION? Answer - the generation that SEES ALL theses things, i.e. the events Jesus mentioned between verses 3-33. NOT the generation Jesus is Speaking to!

THIS (bold is mine) 3778. houtos hoo'-tos, including nominative masculine plural houtoi hoo'-toy, nominative feminine singular haute how'-tay, and nominative feminine plural hautai how'-tahee from the article 3588 and 846; the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):--he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

In that case, who was the letter written to? Did Matthew expect them to see these things?

So the generation has to see the destruction of Jerusalem as well?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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